Gore

[illthrowROCKS@U]

I am pretty much done with this conversation, but I'll add one more thing.

You're asking about critical reception since the beginning. This is harder to do an apples-to-apples comparison, because the same people don't always rate the same albums. So if I said that Adrenaline got an 8/10 from Drowned in Sound, and the Self Titled Korn debut got a D- from The Calgary Herald, it might not necessarily mean much. The best we can do is use what's called "meta-data." Any time you use that prefix, meta, you're basically talking about a conglomeration of other data to create "super data." You could call meta-data, essentially, data of data.

Thankfully, we have something like this. It's called Metacritic, and it's a website that combines and averages all critical reception, as well as user scores. So from this website we can reasonably determine which bands are more well-received by critics and fans alike. All albums prior to 2000 are not represented on the website. I also consider this a far better measure of "success" than album sales, as buying an album doesn't guarantee that you will like it. Have you ever purchased an album that you ended up thinking was bad after listening? Particularly before 2005, when the music industry took its biggest hit due to online downloading that it never recovered from, people bought albums without ever hearing them more frequently than they do now. So if something was popular, such as LB, LP, and Korn all were, it was purchased in hopes of it being good.

And, come to think of it, 2005 is about when Deftones started to take those other bands over on album sales/chart success too. This tells me that when people have a greater chance of hearing the albums beforehand, they prefer Deftones. It also tells me that Deftones has more "fans," considering in order to actually buy an album these days you have to really like a band or musician.

Turns out, fans and critics alike have always preferred Deftones.

Here's the data:

Deftones
White Pony - Critical Score 72, User Score 9.1
Deftones - Critical Score 74, User Score 8.5
Saturday Night Wrist - Critical Score 72, User Score 8.6
Diamond Eyes - Critical Score 78, User Score 8.9
Koi No Yokan - Critical Score 86, User Score 8.7
Gore - Critical Score 81, User Score 8.1

High Point: Critical Score 86, User Score 9.1
Low Point: Critical Score 72, User Score 8.1
Average: Critical Score 77.17, User Score 8.65

Limp Bizkit
Chocolate Starfish and the Hotdog Flavored Water - Critical Score 49, User Score 7.5
Results May Vary - Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Gold Cobra - Critical Score 53, User Score 6.2

High Point: Critical Score 53, User Score 7.5
Low Point: Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Average: Critical Score 45, User Score 5.93

Korn
Untouchables - Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Take A Look In The Mirror - Critical Score 49, User Score 8.3
See You On The Other Side - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.8
Untitled - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.4
Korn III - Critical Score 57, User Score 7.1
The Path of Totality - Critical Score 58, User Score 6.2
The Paradigm Shift - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
The Serenity of Suffering - Critical Score 67, User Score 7.9

High Point: Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 6.2
Average: Critical Score 63, User Score 7.65

Linkin Park
Reanimation - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.1
Meteora - Critical Score 62, User Score 8.6
Minutes to Midnight - Critical Score 56, User Score 6.6
A Thousand Suns - Critical Score 66, User Score 7.3
Living Things - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.8
Recharged - Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
The Hunting Party - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0

High Point: Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
Average: Critical Score 59.71, User Score 7.23


You'll notice that Deftones have the highest High Point, the highest Low Point, and the highest Average. You'll also notice that the Deftones ratings are trending upward, suggesting increasing critical and fan reception over time, while the other bands' best days are behind them. The other exception here is Linkin Park, which has The Hunting Party as a late-stage outlier. Take from this information what you will. Here are the sources:

http://www.metacritic.com/person/deftones
http://www.metacritic.com/person/limp-bizkit
http://www.metacritic.com/person/korn
http://www.metacritic.com/person/linkin-park

[O]

"Professional reviews" are a joke! With the bunch of amateur bloggers who style themselves journalists these days! It's better to actually to read the reviews of just looking at scores. Never trust/fool with anyone who will hide behind social media and talk, A relationship requires trust from both parties involved. Establish trust between you and your followers by becoming a resource. Once you've gained the trust of your followers, credibility follows suit. Example...
http://youtu.be/bfsooZS6v50

[illthrowROCKS@U]

I am pretty much done with this conversation, but I'll add one more thing.

You're asking about critical reception since the beginning. This is harder to do an apples-to-apples comparison, because the same people don't always rate the same albums. So if I said that Adrenaline got an 8/10 from Drowned in Sound, and the Self Titled Korn debut got a D- from The Calgary Herald, it might not necessarily mean much. The best we can do is use what's called "meta-data." Any time you use that prefix, meta, you're basically talking about a conglomeration of other data to create "super data." You could call meta-data, essentially, data of data.

Thankfully, we have something like this. It's called Metacritic, and it's a website that combines and averages all critical reception, as well as user scores. So from this website we can reasonably determine which bands are more well-received by critics and fans alike. All albums prior to 2000 are not represented on the website. I also consider this a far better measure of "success" than album sales, as buying an album doesn't guarantee that you will like it. Have you ever purchased an album that you ended up thinking was bad after listening? Particularly before 2005, when the music industry took its biggest hit due to online downloading that it never recovered from, people bought albums without ever hearing them more frequently than they do now. So if something was popular, such as LB, LP, and Korn all were, it was purchased in hopes of it being good.

And, come to think of it, 2005 is about when Deftones started to take those other bands over on album sales/chart success too. This tells me that when people have a greater chance of hearing the albums beforehand, they prefer Deftones. It also tells me that Deftones has more "fans," considering in order to actually buy an album these days you have to really like a band or musician.

Turns out, fans and critics alike have always preferred Deftones.

Here's the data:

Deftones
White Pony - Critical Score 72, User Score 9.1
Deftones - Critical Score 74, User Score 8.5
Saturday Night Wrist - Critical Score 72, User Score 8.6
Diamond Eyes - Critical Score 78, User Score 8.9
Koi No Yokan - Critical Score 86, User Score 8.7
Gore - Critical Score 81, User Score 8.1

High Point: Critical Score 86, User Score 9.1
Low Point: Critical Score 72, User Score 8.1
Average: Critical Score 77.17, User Score 8.65

Limp Bizkit
Chocolate Starfish and the Hotdog Flavored Water - Critical Score 49, User Score 7.5
Results May Vary - Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Gold Cobra - Critical Score 53, User Score 6.2

High Point: Critical Score 53, User Score 7.5
Low Point: Critical Score 33, User Score 4.1
Average: Critical Score 45, User Score 5.93

Korn
Untouchables - Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Take A Look In The Mirror - Critical Score 49, User Score 8.3
See You On The Other Side - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.8
Untitled - Critical Score 64, User Score 7.4
Korn III - Critical Score 57, User Score 7.1
The Path of Totality - Critical Score 58, User Score 6.2
The Paradigm Shift - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
The Serenity of Suffering - Critical Score 67, User Score 7.9

High Point: Critical Score 80, User Score 8.5
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 6.2
Average: Critical Score 63, User Score 7.65

Linkin Park
Reanimation - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.1
Meteora - Critical Score 62, User Score 8.6
Minutes to Midnight - Critical Score 56, User Score 6.6
A Thousand Suns - Critical Score 66, User Score 7.3
Living Things - Critical Score 60, User Score 7.8
Recharged - Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
The Hunting Party - Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0

High Point: Critical Score 65, User Score 8.0
Low Point: Critical Score 49, User Score 5.2
Average: Critical Score 59.71, User Score 7.23


You'll notice that Deftones have the highest High Point, the highest Low Point, and the highest Average. You'll also notice that the Deftones ratings are trending upward, suggesting increasing critical and fan reception over time, while the other bands' best days are behind them. The other exception here is Linkin Park, which has The Hunting Party as a late-stage outlier. Take from this information what you will. Here are the sources:

http://www.metacritic.com/person/deftones
http://www.metacritic.com/person/limp-bizkit
http://www.metacritic.com/person/korn
http://www.metacritic.com/person/linkin-park

I've quoted myself here, because my comment ended up being the last on the page, and I recognize that this means it has a lower chance of being seen. Regardless, my response is actually aimed at you, O.

I had assumed that the idea of "meta-data" would be misunderstood, and that's why I explained it in my comment. Metacritic does not give reviews. Metacritic compiles all professional reviews of an album and averages them into an aggregate score. What you've provided is a single person's review.

I'm actually a fan of Anthony Fantano, even though I find myself disagreeing with him a lot. He is very funny. But, since that's the person you've decided to bring up, let's see an apples to apples comparison, shall we?

So Fantano gave Gore a 4/10. What did he give to Limp Bizkit? Korn? Linkin Park? Hmmm....

Here's his 4/10 review of The Serenity of Suffering.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKTSgxz-aKg

Here's his HILARIOUS review of Gold Cobra.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45xt7d6L538

And he hasn't even fully reviewed any Linkin Park albums, but one of their albums is included in here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMZxona5az4


So not only is your comparison logically off, as meta-data by definition would include both low and high album reviews, the very person you actually use as your example of a low review for Deftones actually rated LB, Korn, and LP the same or lower.

You claim that professional reviews are a joke, but rely on album sales to determine what bands are "better." Really? Really....? REALLY?! Please...

And Metacritic also contains aggregate reviews from individuals too, not just Professional Critics. All of these skew towards Deftones as well. Or what about Sputnik Music? This is another website in which users rate bands and their albums. Which of these bands has hier reviews on this site? Deftones? Korn? LB? Or Linkin Park?

http://www.sputnikmusic.com/

What about besteveralbums? This is another website which allows users to review bands and albums and give them a score. Which of these 4 bands has a higher ranking on there?

https://www.besteveralbums.com/index.php

In fact... I challenge you to find a single music review website with aggregate scores from average users that rates Korn or Limp Bizkit higher than Deftones. And no, fan sites of those bands do not count. If Professional Reviews mean nothing to you.. why are these average people rating Deftones higher on every one of these aggregate websites? Occassionally, as in the case of besteveralbums, Linkin Park has a higher rating. This I can understand (although disagree with), simply because this band has continued their success. Korn and LB, in nearly every case, is rated lower than Deftones. Why is this? Hmmmm.....

[O]

Wtf!! Anyone can see that... My logic it's not off...Derp

"I had assumed that the idea of "meta-data" would be misunderstood, and that's why I explained it in my comment. Metacritic does not give reviews. Metacritic compiles all professional reviews of an album and averages them into an aggregate score. What you've provided is a single person's review."

That's why my response!!! I'm giving an example of trust...  Are you trolling?

You claim that professional reviews are a joke, but rely on album sales to determine what bands are "better." Really? Really....? REALLY?! Please... No... album sales are ONE of the points... 

[illthrowROCKS@U]

Wtf!! Anyone can see that... My logic it's not off...Derp

"I had assumed that the idea of "meta-data" would be misunderstood, and that's why I explained it in my comment. Metacritic does not give reviews. Metacritic compiles all professional reviews of an album and averages them into an aggregate score. What you've provided is a single person's review."

That's why my response!!! I'm giving an example of trust...  Are you trolling?

You claim that professional reviews are a joke, but rely on album sales to determine what bands are "better." Really? Really....? REALLY?! Please... No... album sales are ONE of the points...

Now you're babbling again...

[O]

Ok...You're a lost troll...See ya

[illthrowROCKS@U]

 

Ok...You're a lost troll...See ya

Yeah, I'd get out too if I were you. The information presented in a thoughtful and reasonable way is getting to be a bit too much for you to handle.

[O]

Ok...You're a lost troll...See ya

Yeah, I'd get out too if I were you. The information presented in a thoughtful and reasonable way is getting to be a bit too much for you to handle.

I can handle your lack of logic ... But i will not waste my time with you...

[illthrowROCKS@U]

Still waiting on that user review site which ranks Korn or Limp Bizkit higher than Deftones...

Still waiting for an actual reasonable response to the information I presented other than, "something something trust."

Everyone else sees what is happening here. But hey, maybe if you keep saying I'm the one who's being illogical it'll actually come true like maaaaaagic.


But ad hominem attacks are much easier than actual reasoning. I can't say I blame you.

[O]

First, you edited your comment after my response... Now, You're acting as you posted that... and I'm the one avoid giving a direct response. Troll and American... I will not waste my time! Derp!

[Inkblades]

Album sales are basically irrelevant to me, because I don't believe commercial success is indicative of musical talent. And obviously Korn, LB and LP all had more play from MTV back in the day than DT ever did. They were more commercially mainstream bands (possibly racism on the part of the industry, too, giving bands fronted by angry, depressed white boys more of a push than a band fronted by a talented Mexican kid). That being said, illthrowROCKS@U did post that DT albums have often had better first week sales on the Billboard charts than the others, especially lately. Why lately? This ties into what he's been saying, what I've been saying and what many outside of the board have been been saying. Here goes...

Haha that shit had me laughing. Of course commercial sucess is indicative of musical talent too...

Of course it isn't.

And that's just mentioning one talent-less group that had huge commercial success. I won't even bother mentioning all of the amazing musicians who never really made it.

As for the rest, illthrowROCKS@U just thoroughly and accurately explained it all. I didn't even take Metacritic's user averages into account, which just further proves that Deftones are more respected than the others.

Look, at the end of the day, if you like these bands more than Deftones, fine. That's your personal tastes. But what we are showing to you is that DT are more respected in the world. They are more relevant ARTISTICALLY. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.

[illthrowROCKS@U]

First, you edited your comment after my response... Now, You're acting as you posted that... and I'm the one avoid giving a direct response. Troll and American... I will not waste my time! Derp!

I didn't begin to type my comment until after I had seen your response. I then edited my comment to include the bit about ad hominem attacks. Not that I expect you to believe me, nor do I care, but even so this wouldn't change anything.

I think you've wasted your time since the minute you took your first breath, simply by seeing your "reasoning" capabilities in action. Your version of "reasoning" includes diversionary tactics, exclusion of facts and information, and generic overused insults. You've presented nothing that counters the hard data I've presented regarding the critical and fan reception of albums on a side-by-side comparison.

You consider album sales to be hard evidence, despite the fact that purchasing an album may or may not actually determine the enjoyment of said album. Yet you've said that Professional Critical Response to an album is not acceptable evidence, despite this being an actual literal determination of enjoyment of an album. You've failed to respond to the information presented that suggests average listeners as well rank Deftones albums higher when compared side-by-side to Limp Bizkit and Korn, and more often than not when compared to Linkin Park as well. When faced with meta-data that counters your argument, you presented individual evidence. This individual evidence actually ended up being against your claim, when I pointed out that the same individual you chose as an example actually rated those other bands even LOWER than he rated this one particular Deftones album. He actually rated Koi No Yokan a 6/10, by the way.. which is higher than he's ever rated ANY Korn, Limp Bizkit, or Linkin Park album since he's begun reviewing albums. But all of this you've ignored.

You're a fish flopping out of water, gasping for breath.

Until you can actually formulate a logical and reasonable argument, with sources to back up your claims, you don't have a leg to stand on. To be able to claim that it is Inkblades or me being illogical is the very epitome of psychological delusion.

[O]

Of course it is ONE of the points... and illthrowROCKS@U didn't thoroughly and accurately explained it All..just trolled.. and even take Metacritic's user averages into account, while social media is shit! And i was giving an example of trust... He keeps trolling...

'Look, at the end of the day, if you like these bands more than Deftones, fine. That's your personal tastes. But what we are showing to you is that DT are more respected in the world. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.'

I'm not even saying that i like more these bands than deftones! I'm giving you a example: Linkin Park is respected and have more success...
I'm just saying on a korn forum- korn is better..  they would say the same, on a lb forum too.

[Inkblades]

[illthrowROCKS@U]

Of course it is ONE of the points... and illthrowROCKS@U didn't thoroughly and accurately explained it All..just trolled.. and even take Metacritic's user averages into account, while social media is shit! And i was giving an example of trust... He keeps trolling...

No trolling here. This is just your defense for being utterly incapable of defending your argument in a thoughtful and reasonable manner, using evidence to support your claims. What you said made no sense, and so I said you were babbling. What does this "example" of "trust" that you "gave" have to do with any of the information I provided?

'Look, at the end of the day, if you like these bands more than Deftones, fine. That's your personal tastes. But what we are showing to you is that DT are more respected in the world. And I don't think that's going to change anytime soon.'

This is the most important part here. Anyone is allowed to like whatever they like. It's nobody's business to decide what another person should find more enjoyable. But...

I'm not even saying that i like more these bands than deftones! I'm giving you a example: Linkin Park is respected and have more success...
I'm just saying on a korn forum- korn is better..  they would say the same, on a lb forum too.

...this is where you go off the rails. This isn't about what this forum says. I have presented evidence that suggests the WORLD says Deftones is better. What any individual likes best is up to them, but to make a measurable and disprovable statement like Korn, Limp Bizkit, or Linkin Park (the former two in particular) are more relevant or more respected or more liked than Deftones is simply false. I've given you the information, should you choose to accept it. My guess is that you won't.

[O]

Dude you edited your posts while I was replying to you!
Now, You're acting as you posted that... and I'm the one avoid giving a direct response to your nonsense and trolling. I will not waste my time !

[Inkblades]

[illthrowROCKS@U]

Dude you edited your posts while I was replying to you!
Now, You're acting as you posted that... and I'm the one avoid giving a direct response to your nonsense and trolling. I will not waste my time !

I edit posts when I believe more information is necessary to better describe my argument. This is because I want to present my argument in the most logical and reasonable manner possible. I have not once looked at your response and edited my comments in order to make you look stupid (you do that well enough on your own).

In fact, your responses have no effect on my editing at all. Again, not that I expect you to believe me, nor do I care. But, I do find it interesting that this is yet another diversionary tactic you've adopted in order to take away from the fact that you have nothing of actual relevance to say.

[O]

You're pathetic!

[ANattyRat]

Deftones, please release Eros so we can all be directed into a more positive conversation. At least release Crest. We need it, be the hero we deserve.