How does the knowledge of musicality change the interpretation of the Deftones?

[nineteen]

I find it difficult to listen to the band as a whole; any band for that matter. I end up focusing on a particular instrument and never the vocals.

I still find their music interesting though as I like the sound of their melody etc. Even Steph's guitar playing, it's simply complex! Same with Abe.

[jaylawl]

No the less you know about music the better from a listeners point of view, im not saying knowing your music tech/theory etc. is a bad thing but it lessens the effect of music when you hear it....   shows you how they go about making music what progressions they use etc...

One thing I know for sure is they know how to blend and have good harmony through there instruments shown greatly on tracks like teenager, etc..

That's a little more complex than you described it.

Having musical knowledge apparently makes it harder to be entertained by music, if that's something good or bad is highly subjective.
Obvioulsy ones interestest in pop-music will decrease when he realises its mostly the same stuff over and over. Standard chord progressions/chlichees always using the same keys without even trying to create somewhat of a new sound? Oh shit, i've been there so often.
You will be forced to find joy for your ears elsewhere. This is the point where i wanna say it is a good thing as diversity in musical "taste" is getting supported( ""s because taste is really an illusionary word used for "listening experience"). From a economical point of view it might even help some bands to sell their music, which are not walking pop-clichees.
On the other hand it can become really stressful for the listener to find something interesting to listen to, aslong as you're unable to blend out the neverending analysis going on subconciously while you're listening.

For me personally, subjectively, whatever... it has always been a good thing.
It kinda makes me feel being less of a victim for the pop-music market, as my ears have become very very picky. If a song already begins with an overused clichee im skipping it the fuck away while choking all over the speakers. And it supported my interest in more complex & less chlichee music really well which brought me to appreciating artists like Deftones as a common example, but also classical music in general.

Deftones are... really simply amazing. They might mostly be kinda easy on structural stuff, as mentioned here before, but they way the use the harmonies they use is incompareable with any other bands (atleast the ones i've heard). I've never heard a clichee in their music (except for their own ones maybe)... neither by listening, nor by attempting an analysis on their harmonies which by the way turned out to be almost impossible with common tools of analysis.

This shit is complex i dont even know why i replied to this.

Cheers

[Caín]

i have been playing instruments since I was 6 years old so I only experienced deftones as a "musician" never as a "listener".

although most people wouldn't call deftones "experimental" or "progressive" in the classical sense, their experimental nature is what drew me to them in the first place. back in 1998 nobody sounded like deftones. they clearly had ties to "rapmetal" or "crossover" (I did not know of NuMetal back then) but did not solely rely on sonic brute force like their peers and predecessors. what deftones did back then (ATF and especially White Pony) was introducing "texture" to the mix. and in context of crossover/rap-metal that was unheard of.

I clearly attribute that to Chino. I think his influence is what makes deftones stand apart. while technically not impressive (he is no Mike Patton or even Jonathan Davis), he used his voice in ways that were not only unorthodox but downright "wrong". while sounding in your face on Adrenaline, you could almost hear him move every muscle in his mouth. on Around the Fur the vocal mix got even "wetter", now with Chino not only being in your face but seducing you at the same time. shit was downright kinky.

aside from the awkward mix and sound, Chino always kept things interesting in terms of melody. What Stephen lacks in melody, Chino effortlessly adds by singing around the guitar. not along, as most people do.

Stef is one on the worst professional guitarists I can think of. He is very lazy in terms of technique, style and proficiency. what's even worse is that he got lazier over time, now almost exclusively relying on monotonous "djent" riffage. I learned to play through each deftones album in less than 2 days, now only barred off by the 8 string. If I remember correctly, Stef couldn't even do the solos in Simple Man and other covers which are NOT hard to do by any means. He could learn those in half and hour but still wouldn't do it. talk about lazy.

What Stef lacks in technique he makes up by being talented. I think the man has a great ear for riffs and sound and it shows on the records. the guitar always sounds fantastic and unique (especially White Pony) and the riffs are although simple very effective sonically. What makes them so effective is his timing. He instinctually knows when to hit the notes at the correct time for maximum dramatic effect (dramatic in terms of suspense and release). This is the only thing keeping his play dynamic. He is missing this dynamic on s/t and Saturday Night Wrist (on some songs) which makes for some bland deftones songs.

okay - I'll stop here now. I'll get to the others later.

[Robotsatemygrandma]

Interesting question and I really enjoyed reading some of the replies... not all of them cause I have the attention span of Will Ferrel's George W right now.

I appreciate the Deftones for their dynamics, the exact reason why I love early 90's alternative/grunge. It's gutsy, emotional, brooding, aggressive, and melodic. Their songs, musically, take the listener on a journey, with strong question answer cadence. Intense is probably the best word. Knowing what I know about music, helps me appreciate them even more. Sure, I can sit there and pick apart every note and say it's wrong and offer criticism, but I can't. I have way too much respect for them and what they do.

Nirvana influenced me to pursue music, Kurt, hands down, was a fucking genius when it came to songwriting. Deftones fueled my fire, like damn, I need to do that. They introduced me to a whole world I never knew existed, and set the status quo to which I compare bands. Safe to say, I'm beyond picky when it comes to music. As I searched for music, my skills as a musician grew. I began playing multiple instruments and a wide variety of styles. Music is an art that expresses an individual. Genre and style is just flavor.

[MommaBear]

Came across this and thought it went well with the thread.  *Steph is talking about how he isn't even a good guitar player and them plays a quick riff.  

I can respect that he isn't trying to proclaim that he is the best, he's very humble, and jolly, kinda like Santa.  And the failed stage dive at 1:19 is pretty funny too.

Deftones - 7 Words + Interview Stephen (Lola Da Musica) (Part 4)


*I'm not sure which is the correct way to shorten his name, I've seen Stef and Steph?

[sing blue silver]

the passion really makes the music for me. since i started playing and have a broader understanding of theory and the technical side of music i can get a bit more critical of certain things i hear sometimes but it's more about how the music makes you feel, not how complex it is or the amount of skill it takes to play it. music is about expression and if you can make someone feel something deeply from a song, it's a good song. i suppose it's open to interpretation, like all art, and some people have a tendency to be a bit snobby but if the passion is there someone will be moved by it.

i guess this is a roundabout way of saying no, it doesn't matter.

[from_musings]

Came across this and thought it went well with the thread.  *Steph is talking about how he isn't even a good guitar player and them plays a quick riff.  

I can respect that he isn't trying to proclaim that he is the best, he's very humble, and jolly, kinda like Santa.  And the failed stage dive at 1:19 is pretty funny too.

*I'm not sure which is the correct way to shorten his name, I've seen Stef and Steph?

hmm..i dunno about santa.. if he was anything like him - he could give us eros.right`?

one could use the argument that that clip is about 13 years ago,that he was mediocore back then but got better with time, touring and playing. a lot can happen in those years. but... yeah... it didn't. don't think he got insanely much better,about the same pretty much.still loves his shit though

[DEFinatelydeftones,fsho]

Came across this and thought it went well with the thread.  *Steph is talking about how he isn't even a good guitar player and them plays a quick riff. 

I can respect that he isn't trying to proclaim that he is the best, he's very humble, and jolly, kinda like Santa.  And the failed stage dive at 1:19 is pretty funny too.

*I'm not sure which is the correct way to shorten his name, I've seen Stef and Steph?

hmm..i dunno about santa.. if he was anything like him - he could give us eros.right`?

one could use the argument that that clip is about 13 years ago,that he was mediocore back then but got better with time, touring and playing. a lot can happen in those years. but... yeah... it didn't. don't think he got insanely much better,about the same pretty much.still loves his shit though

" hey Rudolph!!!  if there isn't enough copies for everyone, you better land on my roof first or I'll hunt your fucking ass this winter!" lol (that was great dude, I am pissing my pants, Musings)

[glassdomino]

they've never needed to wank instrumentally or vocally to write unique and impressive songs.  stef may not be the best technically, but he's fucking pro at writing awesome chord progressions.  i think that's what sold me on them all those years ago... the changes were all so foreign to my ears and i loved it.

[jbmp1390]

This thread is fairly confusing to me. It's seems like many are saying that the band is not experimental with their sound, or that they don't innovate. They may have kind of a "Deftones" sound that they stick to but they're always adding new and different things to it. I think that's what so many people enjoy about them. I know that's the case for me. Sure, they don't always go totally off into left field with their sound, but I think that's one of the endearing things about the band. They incorporate many different elements, but they basically keep the quintessential "Deftones" sound with pretty much all they're songs which is what I really love about them. They're good at pushing the envelope but never going far enough to just totally alienate alot of their fans. It seems very difficult for acts to develop an original sound nowadays, and I really love the fact that they never change that too radically.

[jbmp1390]

I can say that I probably create experimental music because I use various techniques that most artists don't usually use. I mix records in a different way, giving attention to different detail. Also, I invent sounds from different natural and unnatural sources, including various use of field records etc. I try to write songs in unusual patterns, inter-textuality, textures, sounds, concepts, stories.

Yes, I think they are less experimental or even creative than I am in certain moments, but right now they still create music which is far superior to anything that I am able to create right now.

This is an interesting thread and I'm glad you started it but you are on a deftones board, so you should expect at least a little conflict.You have quite the high opinion of your abilities to claim that you're more creative than the band. Btw people have been making the type of music you make with the same "OBSCURE" techniques that you use for a long ass time, so climb down off that high horse. You're music is nowhere near as experimental as you'd like to think. Ever heard of Boards of Canada?

[lostpilot]

I can say that I probably create experimental music because I use various techniques that most artists don't usually use. I mix records in a different way, giving attention to different detail. Also, I invent sounds from different natural and unnatural sources, including various use of field records etc. I try to write songs in unusual patterns, inter-textuality, textures, sounds, concepts, stories.

Yes, I think they are less experimental or even creative than I am in certain moments, but right now they still create music which is far superior to anything that I am able to create right now.

This is an interesting thread and I'm glad you started it but you are on a deftones board, so you should expect at least a little conflict.You have quite the high opinion of your abilities to claim that you're more creative than the band. Btw people have been making the type of music you make with the same "OBSCURE" techniques that you use for a long ass time, so climb down off that high horse. You're music is nowhere near as experimental as you'd like to think. Ever heard of Boards of Canada?

First of all, I will not take insults as arguments. What you wrote up there sounds like half-assed insults. As I stated, I am not declaring that I am creating BETTER music than Deftones; just sometimes my creative freedom is broader than theirs. Declaring which band is or is not experimental clearly depends on the various EXPERIMENTS (hence the name) that the artist does. I don't know how about Deftones, but experiments is how my music is born - by the definition I use experiments to come up with different sounds. Being experimental and being clearly innovative in a sense that no other band has done it are two different things, and I have to agree with you - there are lots of artists that create something similar to what I create. But I am trying to unbound myself from this position while experimenting more, creating my personal sound. So far I succeeded in some variations, I have found my signature sound and feeling. Only through EXPERIMENTS. While Deftones wrote albums like SNW or Diamond Eyes based on the typical structure, typical verse/chorus/verse sound, I am not even talking about the record mix and mastering - haven't you heard another rock record that sounds like that?

Ever heard millions of never heard bands who invent their own personal sound?
Well I am between one of them. And I am only at the sheer beginning of my musical career, evolving, trying to find various methods of self-expression. If what I create right now does not seem "experimental" or "rich" enough for  you, wait for a couple of years. I will be known for my music, for various forms of it, because I want to release music with every possible variation of music and genre, everything through a personal perspective of me. And if you want one argument for me being a little more creative - Deftones right now is what, five person band? I am one person who does everything. I compose everything on my own. I so far released ten albums that differ in sound, structure. I wrote endless stories on most of the songs and albums. Yes, they might not be commercially successful because I am not creating easily consumable product  for the masses. But it is all out there, so please try and respect my input into music which is my greatest passion. So far I am listening to some bands that I love and respect (these things don't change over the idea that I am more or less creative than them) and I can say - I could have done this section better, this is incomplete,  that is not mixed at the best possible way. But at the same time there are sections of songs (even example, Deftones) that I know I would not be able to create. All is fair. So fuck that, I don't need to defend my dignity.

And yes, I am a long-time fan of Boards of Canada and I cannot relate them to being experimental in the same way as I am. What they and I am trying to achieve are different, different sound, different structures. Stop being butthurt over the fact that Deftones are not the most experimental band out there.

[jbmp1390]

I'm not "butthurt" over anything, but way to be homophobic for no reason. I'm merely debating. If they're was no debate or differences of taste and opinion between fans as well as musicians then music would be pretty boring. That's what I like about this board, it brings up interesting topics and I must admit I do enjoy a verbal sparring but sometimes take it a little too far. I'm not saying your music is not "experimental", or that it's not "valid". I've actually listened to a fair amount of your stuff after coming into this thread, and it's quite good. I'm not saying your music is bad, I just think you should be realistic about the fact that alot of people make the same kind of music as you in a really similar way. But as you said, you're experimenting and attemping to evolve your sound which I really respect. I just feel like alot of people get to the place where you're at with your sound and don't then attempt to take it further and act as though they've reached their zenith which I feel inundates us with alot of people who think they're very different and experimental when they're really not at all. Anyway, no disrespect meant, I merely enjoy debating, sometimes with a bit too much enthusiasm. Look forward to seeing what you come up with in the future now that I'm aware of your site. Keep innovating and experimenting, you're right, that's what music is really about.

[lostpilot]

Thank you for a very reasonable reply. Differences are what makes communication interesting, right?

By the way, your statement makes me a homophobic gay guy. Well that's unusual.. lol.

[DEFinatelydeftones,fsho]

I'm not "butthurt" over anything, but way to be homophobic for no reason. I'm merely debating. If they're was no debate or differences of taste and opinion between fans as well as musicians then music would be pretty boring. That's what I like about this board, it brings up interesting topics and I must admit I do enjoy a verbal sparring but sometimes take it a little too far. I'm not saying your music is not "experimental", or that it's not "valid". I've actually listened to a fair amount of your stuff after coming into this thread, and it's quite good. I'm not saying your music is bad, I just think you should be realistic about the fact that alot of people make the same kind of music as you in a really similar way. But as you said, you're experimenting and attemping to evolve your sound which I really respect. I just feel like alot of people get to the place where you're at with your sound and don't then attempt to take it further and act as though they've reached their zenith which I feel inundates us with alot of people who think they're very different and experimental when they're really not at all. Anyway, no disrespect meant, I merely enjoy debating, sometimes with a bit too much enthusiasm. Look forward to seeing what you come up with in the future now that I'm aware of your site. Keep innovating and experimenting, you're right, that's what music is really about.

Butthurt

[jbmp1390]

Thank you for a very reasonable reply. Differences are what makes communication interesting, right?

By the way, your statement makes me a homophobic gay guy. Well that's unusual.. lol.

haha, i was kind of kidding anyway. i have a lot of gay friends and they always hate it when I say butthurt

[beaverwithfishyshoes]

all bullshit. musical knowledge sometimes interferes, but for the wrong reasons ie lack of finger technique ie douchy metalheads.

music is abstract, nobody really understands it.

by timbre and harmony, any new pop song or 2 second piano motif even can be as challenging and experimental as any avant garde fart.    

[beaverwithfishyshoes]

wait for a couple of years. I will be known for my music, for various forms of it

lol