How does the knowledge of musicality change the interpretation of the Deftones?

[MommaBear]

This kinda falls into the bracket of "What is it about the Deftones that makes you love them?", but with a twist.

Just pondering how ones appreciation for the Deftones changes when you have a musical background?  (i.e., play guitar, play drums, are in a band.)

For myself, I wonder if I miss out on things or lack a deeper appreciation for what these guys do because I have no clue what the difference is between a 6 string or an 8 string?  Or if not truly understanding the depths of Abe's drumming creates a deficit? etc.

On the flip side, because I don't have any understanding of that side of things - I also wonder if I can appreciate the music on an entirely different level?  I don't focus on the little nuances, because my brain isn't trained to do so.  I most likely experience their music differently, and so I guess that is what I am wondering and asking - to see how someone else may hear it differently.

Whatcha think?

[deftonesfan192]

No the less you know about music the better from a listeners point of view, im not saying knowing your music tech/theory etc. is a bad thing but it lessens the effect of music when you hear it....   shows you how they go about making music what progressions they use etc...

One thing I know for sure is they know how to blend and have good harmony through there instruments shown greatly on tracks like teenager, etc..

[deftoneskoen]

No the less you know about music the better from a listeners point of view, im not saying knowing your music tech/theory etc. is a bad thing but it lessdend the effect of music when you hear it.... just shows you how they go about making music what progressions they use etc...

One thing I know for sure is they know how to blend and have good harmony through there instruments shown greatly on tracks like teenager, etc..

Teenager was meant to be a Team Sleep song, so it does not have anything to do with their instruments since dj croock is on the turntables in Team Sleep.

[lostpilot]

Oh snap. Now this is a subject.


Okay, before I begin - everything I will post below is highly subjective (fanboys: beware) and those words are not written in stone, it's just something I believe.

So.. to be honest, after I expanded my musical horizons with bands that play with the structure far more  than bands like Deftones, I actually stopped listening to Deftones at all. Well, recently I put on self-titled once in a couple of months but mostly I have stopped listening to most of the things I've listened before the "Advance". Deftones just seemed somehow irrelevant, not experimental/creative enough. For those about to shit on my head with your emotionally soaked arguments - I had, have and will always have profound respect for Deftones as an "eye-opener to the music" and a wonderful band with self-titled being one of my favorite albums of all time that I will never forget. Yes, they do things a little more simple - and why not, they are pretty good at it.

A little background for those not knowing about me - I am a solo artist, a composer and I create various rock forms, mostly influenced by ambient, post-rock, progressive, electronic, neo-classical movements and generally experimental music. You can find some of my sounds here.

The statement that the pleasure which I get from music increased with my musical "knowledge" is so, so! true. When you know how such things are made (and how much emotion one has to put into a song) you start valuing other artists' works. There is a moment after which you start to "understand" how music flows, to understand the complex rhythms, how the textures overflow each other, how  the song is evolving dynamically, structurally and emotionally. There is, still, much profound music that I have not found yet, because I have not yet "learned" how they play that, what they mean and what certain things  they want to transfer  to my heart and mind.

Little nuances matter a lot.
I think I experience music the way you described it. I see every song as a landscape, portrait, surreal painting - and then I judge (by my best objectivity) if the picture fits what I feel then. It is a wonderful, WONDERFUL experience. Especially when you turn the tables backwards - when you write a song, compose it, record it, mix and master it and then release it - and there are people who "understand" what you have done and appreciate it. It's a wonderful feeling. I call it "peaking" into someone's imagination and mind. This is how we share consciousness. And it is fucking beautiful.

[the same sound]

Wonderful topic.

I agree; it works either way.

[Ponte506]

Been a while since I've posted anything, but my .02

Ever since I was introduced to the Deftones (Rickets being the first track my friend ever played for me) back in 1999, I had officially decided to move off of my lame Limp Bizkit kick that I was on since the 6th grade (I just turned 24, so you do the math on that age).  I was finally introduced to some excellent music, and the guitar work from Around the Fur just blew me away.  Be Quiet and Drive instantly became my all time favorite song (of anything, till this day) and I was mesmerized not only by Chino's surreal vocals, but Steph's driving guitar.  Then came the single for "Back to School", and I told my buddy "Dude, you need to teach me that song, I want to get into playing guitar".  And so he taught me...on my Uncle's 1960's Yamaha acoustic, and that's where it all started.  I picked up White Pony, got some cheap-ass Ibanez GAX-50 guitar/amp combo pack for Christmas, and learned every single song off ot it.  The songs were at the time challanging, and it felt so good to nail those fat, overdriven chords right with the CD.  And for years, I was playing Deftones, Staind, Cold, and a few nu-metal bands.  I never really thought too much how simple this guitar-work was.  

Fast forward to 2008.  I'm already one year into the Army, I've got my own off-post housing, just went through a divorce at 20, and now I wanted to make guitar my passion.  Open up a Guitar Center and Musicians Friend credit line, get myself a Marshall 410H 100w amp and matching 4x12 cab, an assortment of Boss Pedals, and decide to drop funds on the ESP Stephen Carptenter 7-string baritone.  And as I'm playing stuff off of Self-Titled and SNW, it hit me..."I'm so limiting myself".  It's just power chord, after power-chord, after power-chord.  I  then start looking back at all of the Deftones albums, did the whole "half-plug in the AUX cable to the iPod" trick to isolate just the guitars, and I just was amazed at how simple and basic Steph's riffs were.  Then came my exploration into other genres of metal, listening to Pantera, Alice in Chains, Killswitch, and then...Slipknot, a band that I honestly feel rosters two of the most technical and skilled guitarists in metal (Jim Root and Mick Thomson).  I couldn't even play Deftones anymore, I just didn't see a point.  It was insanely boring playing their 3-5 chord songs, sifting through all of those repetetive palm mutes, etc.  I was having a blast learning fast-paced, skill intensive Slipknot songs like "Gematria", "Sulfur".  

When it comes down to it, I think we're more stricken with Chino's vocal creativity and  brutal scream attacks, which in turn amplify the effect of Stephs EXTREMELY well-produced and well-mixed guitar tracks.  Abe's sometimes off-beat snare work and catchy drumwork provide the awesome backbone to the band's driving sound, and Frank's ambient additions to each track make some of their songs priceless.  But as a musician, its very hard for me to really appreciate Steph's guitars.  I'm not saying you need to bullet all over the neck with incoherent solos and crazy finger-excercise like riffs in order to come up with a "good song", but I just see the extremely simple riffs as a turn-off sometimes.  Diamond Eyes and Cmnd/Ctrl have to be my 2 favorite songs off of the album, but they're a complete drag to play on the guitar (7 string tuned to 8 ).  

Hope I didn't stray too far off topic, as this was more geared towards the guitar aspect of their song structures rather than the band as a whole, but with guitar being a large part of my life that's what I listen for.  I'm definitely not dissing them in any way shape or form, as they will always remain my all-time favorite band (NYC and Baltimore shows here I come), and if anything, Steph's inspired me A LOT when it comes to writing material for my own projects.  

[Jesus2Chino]

Oh snap. Now this is a subject.


Okay, before I begin - everything I will post below is highly subjective (fanboys: beware) and those words are not written in stone, it's just something I believe.

So.. to be honest, after I expanded my musical horizons with bands that play with the structure far more  than bands like Deftones, I actually stopped listening to Deftones at all. Well, recently I put on self-titled once in a couple of months but mostly I have stopped listening to most of the things I've listened before the "Advance". Deftones just seemed somehow irrelevant, not experimental/creative enough. For those about to shit on my head with your emotionally soaked arguments - I had, have and will always have profound respect for Deftones as an "eye-opener to the music" and a wonderful band with self-titled being one of my favorite albums of all time that I will never forget. Yes, they do things a little more simple - and why not, they are pretty good at it.

A little background for those not knowing about me - I am a solo artist, a composer and I create various rock forms, mostly influenced by ambient, post-rock, progressive, electronic, neo-classical movements and generally experimental music. You can find some of my sounds here.

The statement that the pleasure which I get from music increased with my musical "knowledge" is so, so! true. When you know how such things are made (and how much emotion one has to put into a song) you start valuing other artists' works. There is a moment after which you start to "understand" how music flows, to understand the complex rhythms, how the textures overflow each other, how  the song is evolving dynamically, structurally and emotionally. There is, still, much profound music that I have not found yet, because I have not yet "learned" how they play that, what they mean and what certain things  they want to transfer  to my heart and mind.

Little nuances matter a lot.
I think I experience music the way you described it. I see every song as a landscape, portrait, surreal painting - and then I judge (by my best objectivity) if the picture fits what I feel then. It is a wonderful, WONDERFUL experience. Especially when you turn the tables backwards - when you write a song, compose it, record it, mix and master it and then release it - and there are people who "understand" what you have done and appreciate it. It's a wonderful feeling. I call it "peaking" into someone's imagination and mind. This is how we share consciousness. And it is fucking beautiful.

If you enjoy music for the connection and honesty between people, I don't see why experimental sound, or a lack of it, should have any bearing on what you like. I'm not worked up about the irrelevancy of Deftones comment, but really emotion and honesty soak and saturate Deftones albums. Whether they are experimental or not is debatable in my opinion, as sonically I don't hear many peers of Deftones. I do dig your music on certain levels, but what makes it anymore experimental than what Deftones are doing? I know the genre is called experimental, but it's a genre just like any other, with influences and copycats and a broad but distinguishing sound. Instrumental ambient post-rock isn't really cutting edge, but I wouldn't let that keep me from finding relevancy or value in it. Just my two cents.

To answer the OP's question, as a musician, I think I actually do appreciate Deftones more than I would otherwise. Their talent is in subtleties, and their sound is really impossible to duplicate. I tend to enjoy music most that isn't easily duplicated--but that might be the musician in me.

Much respect,
-Matt

[lostpilot]

Matt,

All the things I wrote are highly debatable. Most of them might be not true after all. What is experimental? This is amazingly debatable. I can say that I probably create experimental music because I use various techniques that most artists don't usually use. I mix records in a different way, giving attention to different detail. Also, I invent sounds from different natural and unnatural sources, including various use of field records etc. I try to write songs in unusual patterns, inter-textuality, textures, sounds, concepts, stories. But, now, where have I ever stated an idea that I create music which is better than Deftones (because I think my music is more "experimental" in a sense). I did not. Yes, I think they are less experimental or even creative than I am in certain moments, but right now they still create music which is far superior to anything that I am able to create right now. That is where my ultimate  respect for them comes.

But then if I listen to Godspeed You! Black Emperor, Deftones seem like a high-school mainstream rock band. Sorry, but it does look like  that. It's all about the subjectivity and context. And for you personally, GY!BE might seem something irrelevant and Deftones might seem to be the better band. But that is your opinion then, right? Isn't it? So this is my opinion; this is how I see Deftones.

By the way, if you cannot hear nothing similar to a band it does not mean they play something experimental. They are UNIQUE in their sound, but by no means it has to mean that they EXPERIMENT with the actual music, progressions. So please respect this idea.

[Jesus2Chino]

I feel like you got a little heated there. I didn't mean to make it sound like a challenge, or like you thought you were better than Deftones; I also wasn't trying to say you weren't entitled to an opinion. I was just trying to add more to a conversation that I thought was interesting. All of the patronization isn't appreciated, or warranted in this case, so I'd appreciate it if you calmed down with that.

I will say that I disagree with your last statement. I don't think Deftones' sound results merely from musicians with specific styles coming together and making something that sounds different. I think Deftones have displayed an interest in and have applied experimentation to their music, and I think that this experimentation was very conscious and intentional. I think whether or not they're successful in sounding 'experimental' is a matter of opinion, but there is an incredible breadth to what experimentation means and is, so I don't think their efforts should be discounted. I respect your opinion as yours, but don't talk to me like I should respect such a subjective idea simply because you find it objective. I meant no disrespect, and don't really understand the hostility. Anyways, to each their own I suppose.

Much respect,
-Matt

[lostpilot]

There is no hostility in my statements. I don't get it why some people see that in my posts. Everyone is entitled to a personal opinion and I am aware of that peace and love

[rock_n_frost]

do you know when the wold is gonna end ?




..when Matt forget to write ''Much respect''

[Jesus2Chino]

Lol, that's cool man, no worries at all!

In a completely constructive way, I can say that rhetorical questions, especially consecutive rhetorical questions, come across as aggressive. Once the red flag of aggression has risen, every word after and before is instantly scrutinized by the reader for other potentially hostile connotations. That's just the nature of forum writing though. Anywho, all is good in Sharinglungs-land, so it's peace and love all around.

Much respect,
-Matt

[Jesus2Chino]

Lol, the habit persists man--I wouldn't want to risk the end of the world.

Much respect,
-Matt

[rock_n_frost]

love you dude..(not in a gay way)

[UrZ*]

I started listening to Deftones right before White Pony came out.. I started playing guitar in 2003 and sang in a band for some time. In 2004-2005 i started playing drums. So first i experienced Deftones as a musiclover, and now as a musician.

I started with Around the Fur and got Adrenaline after. I really loved the agression, White Pony came out and I wasn't immediately struck in awe. After a while it grew on me, and is one of my favorite records to date.

When I started playing guitar I realized that Steph isn't about technical stuff, it's about groove, tone, feel and playing around with timing and strummingpatterns. I always could hear Chino was doing amazing stuff with his voice. Abe's playing did not really stood out to me, until I started to play drums. Neither did Franks, until i became a musician and start listeningto all the soundscaping and such, he's a wizard.

But I mainly listen to Deftones for the feel that everyone adds. For the technical eargasms I listen to Abe, he's not technical like the known-ones like Danny, Mike, Thomas, Benny etc etc. But his creativity and his beats are just so inventive and baffling at times. Oh..and there isn't one single guy on youtube that plays Digital Bath correct...

Deftones reinvent their sound on every single record.. Steph always changes his tone, Chino does different tricks on every album and tries to sound like he's a different person on every record (Mike Patton anyone?). They really pick a 'theme' soundwise for every album and make a cohesive record. Take a band like Linkin' Park, they did the same old shit on every record.. people got bored, and look at them now?...

White Pony, this was the year 2000 (right?).. who else was making music like that? Deftones were(are) pioneers. So I would call that experimental. How many bands used a soundscaping DJ back in 95? No DJ Lethal shit plz.

On DE they play with timesignatures a lot. And riffs like Chino plays on Sextape.. oh yeah they did that also 10 years ago. They say they are just writing stuff, and not thinking about "this is what we're gonna make". But in a way it happens subconsciously. They start tweaking until they get a sound that they want for that album, one that applies to their mood/state at that moment.

Technical it isn't on the level of bands like Meshuggah, Tool, Mars Volta.. but that makes it more heartfelt and soulful music than all those bands.

Have u spotted the changes in timesigs in Butcher or Rocket skates or CMD/CTRL? ;-)

[Jesus2Chino]

Haha, Rock_n_Frost, the feelings mutual. I wish I could pass a couple beers around right now, but alas, technology doesn't advanced as fast as we will it to.

Much respect,
-Matt

[rock_n_frost]

plus two hottie blondie ..
oh maan im so high now
wait
what was that thread about ?............


Much respect
- GOD !!

[MommaBear]

Wow, thanks for the responses.  It is very interesting to hear all of the different opinions. 

No the less you know about music the better from a listeners point of view, im not saying knowing your music tech/theory etc. is a bad thing but it lessens the effect of music when you hear it....   shows you how they go about making music what progressions they use etc...

I tend to agree with this.  I think not having the knowledge is actually a benefit.  Kinda like if you were a special effects person, a movie may not seem as good to you since you know the all the secrets that go into making the final product.  Having a virginal ear almost seems a benefit.  Although, not having the ability to be on the other side of the fence, that is just my subjective, one-sided view.

I was surprised to find that those with the musical background, who are able to break down what the Deftones do, seem to have a similar opinion that it is quite simple and not as complex as other bands.  I assumed that there was sheer magic going on in the background that I wasn't privy to.  I still hold my belief of sheer magic, because my body tells me so.  But, again, very surprised that those with music expertise have a united consensus that complexity is not the overwhelming trend.  When it comes to musical complexity, I seems that it isn't something that most listeners value and complexity doesn't generally equate to success - a top 40 list pretty much confirms that.  Very interesting to peek into your musical brains and see how your knowledge has changed your appreciation of the Deftones, and music as a whole, one way or another. 

One shared element that most seem to share belief in, is the way in which the Deftones are superior in vocals.  My initial interest in this band was because of the vocals.  Plain and simple, Chino's voice is pretty.  Just as quickly though, he can use his voice to get dirty and raw, with the screams and the growls.  The way that Chino uses his voice as an instrument, with the inflections and such, is the basis of why I like the music.  I thought that was such a simplistic view of why I like the band, but it's nice to see that most listeners (from virginal ears to music aficionados) are in this same boat.

[lostpilot]

Simple does not necessarily mean bad.
Simple things sometimes create the greatest beauty.

[Jesus2Chino]

Wow, thanks for the responses.  It is very interesting to hear all of the different opinions. 

No the less you know about music the better from a listeners point of view, im not saying knowing your music tech/theory etc. is a bad thing but it lessens the effect of music when you hear it....   shows you how they go about making music what progressions they use etc...

I tend to agree with this.  I think not having the knowledge is actually a benefit.  Kinda like if you were a special effects person, a movie may not seem as good to you since you know the all the secrets that go into making the final product.  Having a virginal ear almost seems a benefit.  Although, not having the ability to be on the other side of the fence, that is just my subjective, one-sided view.

I was surprised to find that those with the musical background, who are able to break down what the Deftones do, seem to have a similar opinion that it is quite simple and not as complex as other bands.  I assumed that there was sheer magic going on in the background that I wasn't privy to.  I still hold my belief of sheer magic, because my body tells me so.  But, again, very surprised that those with music expertise have a united consensus that complexity is not the overwhelming trend.  When it comes to musical complexity, I seems that it isn't something that most listeners value and complexity doesn't generally equate to success - a top 40 list pretty much confirms that.  Very interesting to peek into your musical brains and see how your knowledge has changed your appreciation of the Deftones, and music as a whole, one way or another. 

One shared element that most seem to share belief in, is the way in which the Deftones are superior in vocals.  My initial interest in this band was because of the vocals.  Plain and simple, Chino's voice is pretty.  Just as quickly though, he can use his voice to get dirty and raw, with the screams and the growls.  The way that Chino uses his voice as an instrument, with the inflections and such, is the basis of why I like the music.  I thought that was such a simplistic view of why I like the band, but it's nice to see that most listeners (from virginal ears to music aficionados) are in this same boat.

I think they're superior in many ways. Deftones is really a collection of the ultimate 'in the pocket' musicians. These guys can really rock out in very subtly unexpected ways on the fly. While Abe and Chino are obvious choices for style and originality, it's tough to find someone that can truly slay a Stef song on guitar. I think something everyone mentioned as being impressive about Deftones is the nuance and subtly of the band. While you may listen to them and find it simple enough, when you sit down and try to master a song, you find that it doesn't make as much sense as you thought it might.

The reality is that Abe is a seriously fantastic drummer by anyone's standards, Chino is a completely unique and irreplaceable vocalist, and that Stef is in the pocket and more talented than people give him credit for (though he gets lazy). Where Deftones are simple is in song structure, and for the most part time signature choices. Again for the most part they also stick to rather traditional instrument choices as far as goes how they use them to add texture to a song. I think they would be considered much more experimental if they'd allow themselves a couple 7+ minute songs with more of a free structure and some (more) interesting time signatures. I think at some point we've all wanted Deftones to try the above out, as the idea of a 10 minute Deftones song makes my heart beat a little faster, lol.

Much respect,
-Matt