Vegans/Vegetarians thread

[lostpilot]

[alvarezbassist17]

Humans are designed to go for high fat, high protein based foods, this comes from our days of being hunter gatherers, food would have to be caught, after spending 1/2 a day tracking, hunting, setting traps you'd want your prey to have some meat on it.

Eating meat, it would seem, is more natural than not, it could be argued that those who don't have lost their connection with mother nature, as Elton John's lyricist once said, it's the circle of life.

I would agree however that the ever increasing population and it's burgeoning demand for meat has resulted in mass over-farming of animals, which has resulted in a lot of fucked up practices. Being a vegan therefore, is honourable as a protest against this, but I remain unconvinced that it is a naturally occuring phenomona, more a state of mind if you will.

being a human does mean not being an natural being alone.

Yeah, but it did at one point, that's where our instincts come from, and that's why, in addition to what ry said, humans tend towards a diet with meat in it.  It's socio-biological, the state before human ethics.

i claim its just social. no insticts involved in me eating meat. its just a habit i learned.

That makes absolutely zero sense.

[fireflyry]

i claim its just social. no insticts involved in me eating meat. its just a habit i learned.

Seriously...think about it.

It's instinctive survival at it's purest.It's also blatantly obvious scientifically not to mention historically.We wouldn't be here without meat and meat eaters.

The difference now days is the luxury of choice followed by the direct shift in social morals and ethics.It's easy to frown on when you have options.

I respect personal choice but to state eating meat is no more than a bad habit is pretty left-field outside subjective opinion.

[Nailec]

We wouldn't be here without meat and meat eaters.

did i say otherwise?

can anyone of you proove that were born with an instict to eat meat? is there such thing in our genom?


i think our species survived that well because it was able to adopt in a specific environmental and social setting. 

[Necrocetaceanbeastiality]

can anyone of you proove that were born with an instict to eat meat?

I can think of one thing. We still have canine teeth. I don't think we need instinct when our bodies are designed to process meat. Granted, we eat faaaaaaaaaaaar too much meat, myself included, but the point is, mother made us omnivorous. We CAN eat meat. We don't HAVE to.

[defskull]

That's the beauty of being an omnivore!

[Necrocetaceanbeastiality]

That's the beauty of being an omnivore!

Exactly. If you believe being veggie will make a difference, go for it. Personally, I believe that meat farms are wrong. but that at this point in society, there are VASTLY larger problems that we have to deal with before my beliefs about meat farms can even be tackled.

I don't think we can deal with the problem of how we process our meat can be dealt with until we're less dependent on convenience. The convenience that the way we farm our meat is the real problem. And THIS problem can't be tackled until society gets out of the slump it's in.

I'm riffing and I'm not sure if any of that made sense. I'm a little drunk. But the point is, there are bigger problems that we have to tackle. Such as the problems that can lead to societal collapse. I'm all for the proper respect of animals and what they do for us, but we just can't deal with that until we deal with out own problems. Yeah it sucks, I agree, But if we want to advance the human race to the point of being selfLESS instead of selfISH so we can take care of our planet and all the beautiful things mother nature has given us, then we have to deal with ourselves. We can't respect nature until we respect what nature has done for us.

And here's something else to think about that, as I think it, I know you vegetarians will argue. One human being is utterly useless in the great scheme of the universe. Think about it. The vastness of space. The vastness of our solar system. If we left earth and traveled to the nearest star with our current technology, it'd take 81,000 years. And that's just the nearest system. The chance that there's life there that gives a flying fuck about us is unbelievably remote. So what does it matter of ONE person on our planet decides to stop eating meat to save the lives of a couple of cows? Great, you save three cows in your life. Oh wait. The cows still got slaughtered. You just didn't eat the meat. It expired on the shelf in the store.

I'm not particularly trying to argue that your beliefs are futile. Everyone has a right to there beliefs. If you think some omnipotent being in the sky created you and your thumbless hands, that's great. Believe that. But let's at least be realistic and logical about our beliefs. If PETA (fuck PETA) says that cows can feel too, don't get caught up in feeling guilty because the human race eats meat, think about our history, how we've lived in the past, how your deciding to be veggie will affect the planet, how your being veggie will affect yourself and those around you...because in reality, you don't matter. The three cows you saved don't matter. Our planet doesn't matter. Sol doesn't matter. Our galaxy doesn't matter. We are but a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck in an infinite possibility of planets in an infinite possibility of solar systems in an infinite possibility of galaxies in an infinite possibility of universes. The universe is infinite. Stop thinking you're special and that you can make a difference in the world.

Instead, let's focus on being good to each other. Let's get along.

That really only partially had anything to do with vegetarianism, but I'm wasted and I'm sick of people thinking they can "make a difference". In the whole scope of things, if you affect the entire planet, you still affect nothing. Let's not take life for granted. Let's not think that we are infinite. We aren't. Let's take life for what it is and enjoy it. Fuck the system, life is beautiful. Enjoy it.

[chick de la lynch]

So what does it matter of ONE person on our planet decides to stop eating meat to save the lives of a couple of cows? Great, you save three cows in your life. Oh wait. The cows still got slaughtered. You just didn't eat the meat. It expired on the shelf in the store.

I'm not particularly trying to argue that your beliefs are futile.

Sorry, but you are arguing that and saying you're not arguing that isn't helping your cause. For me, it's not so much as making a difference as much as saving a cow from torture for just one day. It probably sounds futile to you and every other person who isn't a vegetarian, but to me I know I might have given one cow a day's peace. If you're going to argue that it's going to die anyway, then you're missing my point. I'm pragmatic, and I don't expect that me being a vegetarian is going to make a huge difference, because I know it doesn't. The rest of the world would have to follow suit, and that is not going to happen any time in the near future.

The problem isn't necessarily the animal that's getting killed. I understand people eat meat. I'm not the stereotypical vegetarian who will tell you you're a horrible person for eating dead flesh. In fact, I hate when other vegetarians do that and I actually hate PETA for doing that. Their heart is in the right place, I just think it's a fucked up way of turning people off to meat. What ticks me off is the way these animals are slaughtered. It's not humane and if you're going to kill a cow for food, I would rather have it put out of its misery than endlessly tortured before it's killed.

[blixa]

we stepped away from evolution as soon as civilisation came to be. if you do not participate in rape because it is morally wrong, you are sacrificing the opportunity for something pleasurable but not necessary. yes, others will be raped probably until the end of time, but at least you are not contributing to the problem. if you do not eat meat, yes other animals will be killed, but not because of you and not for you, and that many less animals will be killed when it is not necessary. and i'm not associating rape with pleasure here. just an analogy to make a point. the parallel was to be found in sacrificing pleasure for the ethical choice of respecting the rights of others (including the rights of animals and other humans who suffer from the pollution caused by meat farms) over temporary unneccessary pleasure of self.

we have to believe in the power of reason to solve problems. one of the problems humans have created, and therefore have the responsibility to solve, is how to a) protect all the other species on this planet from destruction from our excesses, and b) how to feed our bloated population in a humane manner.

evolution isn't a value system. to say humans are more "evolved" than most animals isn't saying other animals are inferior. besides, honey bees are at the top of their evolutionary chain; in terms of evolutionary adaptation, they are precisely as "evolved" as humans are.

it's quite possible that lions do have the ability to reason morally; it's certain that other animals, such as dolphins and chimpanzees, do. however, humans are the only creature who use the ability to reason to adapt the environment, rather than adapting to the environment. so we have to face questions which dolphins, chimps, and lions don't. if a lion refuses its ethical responsibility to examine its actions, it's not going to wipe out other species or cause the suffering of billions of other feeling beings. an intellectually lazy human does just that.

[blixa]

can anyone of you proove that were born with an instict to eat meat?

I can think of one thing. We still have canine teeth. I don't think we need instinct when our bodies are designed to process meat. Granted, we eat faaaaaaaaaaaar too much meat, myself included, but the point is, mother made us omnivorous. We CAN eat meat. We don't HAVE to.

not true. our teeth are not designed to eat flesh. we have no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding whilst meat eaters have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding. we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores if we were designed to eat meat.

many poor people waste money on nutritionally deficient meats because they believe meat is necessary to survive.

i think if factory farms were abolished, the huge quantities of money invested in furthering the myth that meat is necessary and agriculture an extension of man's natural dominion over beast (whatever that means) would crumble with it. i also don't understand why everyone got so defensive in this thread and almost immediately tried to prove that human's are meant to eat meat and shared their unsuccessful veg experience. i understood this thread was about recipes, yeah?

[Necrocetaceanbeastiality]

Sorry for my drunken ramble. It made no sense.

can anyone of you proove that were born with an instict to eat meat?

I can think of one thing. We still have canine teeth. I don't think we need instinct when our bodies are designed to process meat. Granted, we eat faaaaaaaaaaaar too much meat, myself included, but the point is, mother made us omnivorous. We CAN eat meat. We don't HAVE to.

not true. our teeth are not designed to eat flesh. we have no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding whilst meat eaters have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding. we wouldn't have so many crucial ingestive/digestive similarities with animals that are herbivores if we were designed to eat meat.

many poor people waste money on nutritionally deficient meats because they believe meat is necessary to survive.

i think if factory farms were abolished, the huge quantities of money invested in furthering the myth that meat is necessary and agriculture an extension of man's natural dominion over beast (whatever that means) would crumble with it. i also don't understand why everyone got so defensive in this thread and almost immediately tried to prove that human's are meant to eat meat and shared their unsuccessful veg experience. i understood this thread was about recipes, yeah?

We DO have sharp tearing teeth. AND we have grinding teeth. Like every other omnivore on the planet.

[oldgentlovecraft]

That's the beauty of being an omnivore!

Exactly. If you believe being veggie will make a difference, go for it. Personally, I believe that meat farms are wrong. but that at this point in society, there are VASTLY larger problems that we have to deal with before my beliefs about meat farms can even be tackled.

I don't think we can deal with the problem of how we process our meat can be dealt with until we're less dependent on convenience. The convenience that the way we farm our meat is the real problem. And THIS problem can't be tackled until society gets out of the slump it's in.

I'm riffing and I'm not sure if any of that made sense. I'm a little drunk. But the point is, there are bigger problems that we have to tackle. Such as the problems that can lead to societal collapse. I'm all for the proper respect of animals and what they do for us, but we just can't deal with that until we deal with out own problems. Yeah it sucks, I agree, But if we want to advance the human race to the point of being selfLESS instead of selfISH so we can take care of our planet and all the beautiful things mother nature has given us, then we have to deal with ourselves. We can't respect nature until we respect what nature has done for us.

And here's something else to think about that, as I think it, I know you vegetarians will argue. One human being is utterly useless in the great scheme of the universe. Think about it. The vastness of space. The vastness of our solar system. If we left earth and traveled to the nearest star with our current technology, it'd take 81,000 years. And that's just the nearest system. The chance that there's life there that gives a flying fuck about us is unbelievably remote. So what does it matter of ONE person on our planet decides to stop eating meat to save the lives of a couple of cows? Great, you save three cows in your life. Oh wait. The cows still got slaughtered. You just didn't eat the meat. It expired on the shelf in the store.

I'm not particularly trying to argue that your beliefs are futile. Everyone has a right to there beliefs. If you think some omnipotent being in the sky created you and your thumbless hands, that's great. Believe that. But let's at least be realistic and logical about our beliefs. If PETA (fuck PETA) says that cows can feel too, don't get caught up in feeling guilty because the human race eats meat, think about our history, how we've lived in the past, how your deciding to be veggie will affect the planet, how your being veggie will affect yourself and those around you...because in reality, you don't matter. The three cows you saved don't matter. Our planet doesn't matter. Sol doesn't matter. Our galaxy doesn't matter. We are but a speck of a speck of a speck of a speck in an infinite possibility of planets in an infinite possibility of solar systems in an infinite possibility of galaxies in an infinite possibility of universes. The universe is infinite. Stop thinking you're special and that you can make a difference in the world.

Instead, let's focus on being good to each other. Let's get along.

That really only partially had anything to do with vegetarianism, but I'm wasted and I'm sick of people thinking they can "make a difference". In the whole scope of things, if you affect the entire planet, you still affect nothing. Let's not take life for granted. Let's not think that we are infinite. We aren't. Let's take life for what it is and enjoy it. Fuck the system, life is beautiful. Enjoy it.

I physically applauded you.  Good post, mate (wasted or not).

[fireflyry]

can anyone of you proove that were born with an instict to eat meat? is there such thing in our genom?

To be blunt.Yes.

Google it.

Instead, let's focus on being good to each other. Let's get along.

True bud and I get you but to cancel debate on a topic by simply stating "there are bigger issues" is pretty redundant and unproductive.

There will always be bigger issues but that takes nothing away from minority discussion, as I would assume was the theme of this thread topic.

Not solving world peace.

[alvarezbassist17]

we stepped away from evolution as soon as civilisation came to be. if you do not participate in rape because it is morally wrong, you are sacrificing the opportunity for something pleasurable but not necessary. yes, others will be raped probably until the end of time, but at least you are not contributing to the problem. if you do not eat meat, yes other animals will be killed, but not because of you and not for you, and that many less animals will be killed when it is not necessary. and i'm not associating rape with pleasure here. just an analogy to make a point. the parallel was to be found in sacrificing pleasure for the ethical choice of respecting the rights of others (including the rights of animals and other humans who suffer from the pollution caused by meat farms) over temporary unneccessary pleasure of self.

we have to believe in the power of reason to solve problems. one of the problems humans have created, and therefore have the responsibility to solve, is how to a) protect all the other species on this planet from destruction from our excesses, and b) how to feed our bloated population in a humane manner.

evolution isn't a value system. to say humans are more "evolved" than most animals isn't saying other animals are inferior. besides, honey bees are at the top of their evolutionary chain; in terms of evolutionary adaptation, they are precisely as "evolved" as humans are.

it's quite possible that lions do have the ability to reason morally; it's certain that other animals, such as dolphins and chimpanzees, do. however, humans are the only creature who use the ability to reason to adapt the environment, rather than adapting to the environment. so we have to face questions which dolphins, chimps, and lions don't. if a lion refuses its ethical responsibility to examine its actions, it's not going to wipe out other species or cause the suffering of billions of other feeling beings. an intellectually lazy human does just that.

You have got to be kidding me.  Number one, we were talking about sociobiology.  That it's instinctual for people to like meat.  It's the same reason people like salt, sugar, or anything else.  Things taste good because they were so scarce in primitive society, it's a defense mechanism to get people to crave what their body needs.

The ethics is a whole different discussion.  But you're absolutely insane to label people as intellectually lazy because they see the difference between animal and human rights, and for equating animal and human reason.

[chick de la lynch]

can anyone of you proove that were born with an instict to eat meat? is there such thing in our genom?

To be blunt.Yes.

Google it.

If you know a source off hand that isn't biased and reputable about the subject at hand then post it in this thread. Just saying "Google it" isn't making an argument for your cause.

[fireflyry]

Why bother?

You missed where I was coming from.

We both know that "factual studies" can be thrown up for either argument, that's the whole point.

"Can you prove it's true?/Can you prove it's false?"

From that point on any debate goes out the window and it becomes selective posting of subjective information, especially concerning this topic.

"Post a link or your wrong"...is just a cop out.

Then again so is this post.

Exactly.

[raynor]

Someone hook me up with a good vegetarian recipe blog/webpage!

[sing blue silver]

[chick de la lynch]

Why bother?

You missed where I was coming from.

We both know that "factual studies" can be thrown up for either argument, that's the whole point.

"Can you prove it's true?/Can you prove it's false?"

From that point on any debate goes out the window and it becomes selective posting of subjective information, especially concerning this topic.

"Post a link or your wrong"...is just a cop out.

Then again so is this post.

Exactly.

Haha, maybe you should re-read your post because that's funnier than the picture sing blue silver posted.

There's nothing wrong with having a debate on the subject, and any argument anyone makes is ALWAYS using selective information--you're trying to convince someone to have a certain opinion. If you think it's pointless, then you don't have to post in this thread. You do know people learn things by debate and other points of view, right? Sometimes people are convinced, and others still stand with their original opinion. It doesn't necessarily make it "pointless" because no matter what you're learning something new by listening to a different opinion. I am intrigued by this topic because I am not very savvy about the subject at hand and would like to learn more about it. I don't know about you, but I like learning new things which is why I made this thread in the first place--to learn more about vegetarianism and other subjects related to it.

Anyway the other reason why I asked for a source is because telling someone to "Google it" isn't going to move the debate forward and isn't a contribution to this thread whatsoever. It's pretty much closing any argument that could be posted in this thread. At least with a source, people can start to form opinions or at least gain insight. It's not a cop out to ask for a link or any other source. It's actually pretty valid and logical.

[defskull]

Why argue in the first place about it? You either choose to not eat meat or you don't.  Pretty simple.  Choose your side and move on.  Arguing about this is retarded.  It's like me saying I like peanut butter and you don't and we're trying to argue who is right.  No one is right.  It's just a choice.