Federal Ban on Clove Cigarettes in the U.S.

[Variable]

I really wasn't trying to be insulting with that.  I think a lot of stuff in this topic has just come out wrong all over the place. 

And believe me.  I fully understand that freedom and democracy was not born in America.  Just this happened to be the grounds where the world wide revolution really gained its momentum. 

And the constitution was written in a way that was supposed to be timeless.  I really don't see how its outdated.  You can amend anything that you need to. 

[Variable]

Bro, I don’t think you have any idea how ignorant you sound.  The U.S. Constitution was-is one of the most significant documents ever in the history of the world.  The U.S. revolution was so much more than a revolution for the colonies.  It was a world wide statement of a thirst for freedom and democracy.  That document and the history around it has greatly influenced and changed history all over the world.

i doubt jacob intended to offense the historical relevance of the constitution.

what i understand and what i support is: perhaps from time to time this holy cow, that is the constitution, should be butchered. i mean, considering how old it is.


btw another question out of curiosity. i have the feeling, youre an expert on this.

how does the constitution relate to other law texts? or such as the un charta or the declaration of human rights? are there conflicts between them?

Ha bro I'm not an expert on anything.  I just know what I google when I'm bored and what I read in magazines when I'm waiting to get my hair cut.  I really don't know a whole lot ( except the bare basics ) about both documents.  I mean I always thought the UN Charter was more of an anti war document.  But I guess I don't really know. 
I can tell you that I know the US often acts illegally according to its constitution based on UN resolutions.  According to the law of the US, only congress has the right to make many of the calls that the UN now tries to make for the US.  The constitution is still the supreme law of the land in the US.  Not the UN Charter or UN resolutions.  I'm actually not a fan of the UN at all. 

[tarkil]

Just this happened to be the grounds where the world wide revolution really gained its momentum. 

[Jacob]

Just this happened to be the grounds where the world wide revolution really gained its momentum. 

you see, Tarkil... as Americans have very little history and no real common ancestors they have to make what little history they have so much more important.

[tarkil]

I hope I won't sound like I'm superior or anything (not my intention anyway) but yes, I did notice this kind of self centered behaviour before indeed...
But yeah, what can you do....

[Jacob]

it's definitely not my intention either and I'm sick of people always taking it as a personal insult when I speak my mind about mainly the US. I'm not speaking ill of any particular person, after all. and if any american is willing to try to change my mind in a civilized way, then I'm all for it.

but yes, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the US has always tried to make itself more important historically and culturally because it in fact lacks much in those areas. my dad loves to travel and has nothing at all against the US, but what he says every time he's been there is that there is nothing to see, no historical monuments, no historical places, no cultural heritage. the closest you can come to that is probably the small indian communities that are treated like outsiders.

[Variable]

I'm sorry but you guys could at least back this up with facts or events that would say I'm wrong.  You Tarkil of all people should know that the French Revolution was greatly inspired by the American Revolution.  Also I understand all the centuries that brought America to the revolution.  I understand that philosophers like Locke and Voltaire inspired the founding fathers to do what they did.  I understand that the US was not the first democracy and not the only one of its time.  But the large majority of western civilization were still monarchies that all started to topple over after the American Revolution.  This much I know is a fact. 

[alvarezbassist17]

How about a little thing called the constitution?

gb2 being foreign

omfg, I would wipe my ass with the constitution if I could.

it's not that I don't agree with most of what it says, but the way you americans so blindly refer to it disgusts me just as much as any religious nut refers to the bible.

Dude.  It's that the constitution IS STILL OUR LAW.  It's still legally just as important (clearly not treated that way, but it should be) as it was when it was ratified, which is why people always go back to it when the government tries to pass new laws, as they should.  If they want to completely circumvent the constitution, then they should pass a new one or there's no point in having one.  Do you see what I'm getting at here? 

And I agree, saying that just sounds so very ignorant from that point of view.

[Variable]

But then they roll their eyes at me

[wither-I]

it's definitely not my intention either and I'm sick of people always taking it as a personal insult when I speak my mind about mainly the US. I'm not speaking ill of any particular person, after all. and if any american is willing to try to change my mind in a civilized way, then I'm all for it.

but yes, I've pretty much come to the conclusion that the US has always tried to make itself more important historically and culturally because it in fact lacks much in those areas. my dad loves to travel and has nothing at all against the US, but what he says every time he's been there is that there is nothing to see, no historical monuments, no historical places, no cultural heritage. the closest you can come to that is probably the small indian communities that are treated like outsiders.

no monuments? no cultural heritage? you gotta be kidding me, he must be visiting little rock arkansas

tell him to come to new orleans and im sure his mind will be altered indefinitely

[Variable]

Yeah actually I missed that part for some reason.  There are monuments and historical sights all over America.  Especially on the east coast and in the south. 

[Jacob]

tell me about them. I'd love to know more.

Dude.  It's that the constitution IS STILL OUR LAW.  It's still legally just as important (clearly not treated that way, but it should be) as it was when it was ratified, which is why people always go back to it when the government tries to pass new laws, as they should.  If they want to completely circumvent the constitution, then they should pass a new one or there's no point in having one.  Do you see what I'm getting at here? 

And I agree, saying that just sounds so very ignorant from that point of view.

I know it's still your law, and you're yet again missing my point.

let's just put it like this - if we were to have discussion on gun laws and I asked you why it should be legal for all americans to own a gun, and you replied "because it says so in the constitution", I'd react the way I did in this thread. if you had replied with any real arguments we could have continued the discussion. and that's exaclty the type of comment Josh made, which made me reply like that. how was only kidding, so we don't even have to go down that road.

I'm not the least interest in discussing american laws and how important the constitution was once upon a time. but I will ask this - haven't there recently been changes made to that document to make room for new laws or change old ones?

[Variable]

Yeah.  The constitution can be amended.  That's the point.  Its timeless.

And I totally understand your point.  But you did not say it like that at first.  You said we ignore gun laws because of the constitution.  Not that we ignore the philosophy behind gun laws because of it.

But either way, most gun laws are ridiculous.  In most cases I don't support the government taking its citizens rights away ( in this case the kind of cigarettes they can buy ) But its not very hard at all to objectively look at gun laws and see that to think they will lower gun crimes is just wishful thinking.  Making something illegal has never in history stopped it from happening.  I'm pretty dam sure Americans will continue to smoke whatever kind of tobacco they want.  Just now it will be more expensive, they might have to worry about harassment, and it could open up some sort of new crime syndicate. 

[Jacob]

that's exaclty how I said it at first, you must have misunderstood me. but I tire of this, so let's drop it.

I don't believe in taking peoples rights away either, but guns is a whole different thing. I'm very glad we have the gun laws we have here in sweden, or I'd be much more scared of living in the neighbourhood I live in. and you can't really compare guns with cigarettes in this case, if you ask me. if guns were illegal you'd have to turn to pretty heavy criminals to obtain them, but getting a pack of cigarettes from any nearby country wouldn't exaclty be hard.

[Variable]

A ban on guns and a ban on certain types of tobacco are for sure different in some ways.  But they still hold the same principal of government getting involved in personal and private decisions.  This just does not need to happen.  For some reason people, especially people in high places, seem to think they actually have the ability to control other people.  This is not reality.  My parents telling me not to go out and get in trouble never once prevented me from going out and getting into trouble if I wanted to.  Police pulling me over and giving me tickets has never stopped me from speeding.  The war on drugs hasn't stopped me from doing anything I wanted if I felt like it.  And believe me, all these silly laws about what kinds of weapons I can and can't own have not stopped me from seeking out and finding whatever I wanted.  And I'm not so different from most other people.

Here is a really simplistic way of why I believe in the right to bear arms, and concealed to carry.  Imagine a scary movie ( a realistic one where the killer can be killed.  I like to use the movie vacancy for this example ) Now imagine that movie where the victims had 45s tucked into the small of their backs.  Story over real quick for the killer. 

Most who appose the right to bear arms would say that it makes society safer because it eliminates guns.  But we all know that is childish and fool hearted to believe.  All it does is disarm law abiding citizens.  Weapons trade is a major world wide underground market.  The flood gates simply open with a certain weapon is made illegal.  Anyone who would care to, could illegally obtain a weapon the same as marijuana , cocaine, steroids, and Cuban cigars.  So you're supporting taking weapons ( and the ability to use equal force for self defense ) away from the good law abiding citizens,  knowing dam well that criminals will continue to have them.  How on earth does that make sense to anyone?

Plus we all know murders will not go down.  Look at prisons in America.  They have the highest murder rate in the entire nation ( possibly the world ) and none of the murders have a gun.  This only proves that people will still murder no matter what.  It is not about weapons.  It is about society and the psyche of the person.  I'm not saying murders would go up if guns disappeared ( I don't think anyone can prove that )  But I do know my ability to use a gun to defend myself against an assailant with a gun would go away.  I don't like that.

You say you feel safer in a society without guns?  Ill share this fact with you.  I want you to understand first though that this is a fact.  Its not rhetoric or propaganda.  This is raw intel received straight from uncovered Al Qaeda planning rooms. It really pisses me off when people roll their eyes at this or try to brush it off like its nothing.  Anyways
After a raid and all that good stuff.  They uncovered that Al Qaeda were planning multiple attacks on US soil.  The priority seemed to be to take over a school and kill torture all the children ( Al Qaeda made a statement that the massacre in Beslan was just a test for what was to come to schools in the US. )  However a very interesting thing that was uncovered was that Al Qaeda had great interest in looking at the amount of privately registered weapons in cities and communities.  They were looking up the amount of police to citizen ratio and the amount of guns to citizens ratio.  Why?  Because they don't want to try to pull off an attack in an area where people are packing.  One or two parents with handguns could throw a huge wrench into the operation.  So yeah, they were only planning operations in areas with strict gun control laws and a very liberal atmosphere about violence and weapons.  Like it or not.  That's a fucking fact brother.  Here is a pic for some food for though. 

 
This is what actually happens in reality when citizens are not armed and people have been conditioned to not be violent in self defense.  The story about Al Qaeda planning these attacks in areas of low weapons was  hardly publicized because the government didn't want to scare the public into letting them know how close these attacks were to happening to their children.  But its still true.  "thos who can't kill will always be subject to those who can."

But hey, at least all you anti gun Nazis got your principals and philosophies to hold on to. 

And that's all I really care to say about that.  I was trying to stay away from the subject because of how ridiculously off subject it is.  But people keep bringing it up so I didn't care to bite my tong anymore. 

[Jacob]

you know what, I started reading all that, then I just decided not to bother and just state again: I'm glad we have the gun laws we have here in Sweden. and I will add this: there aren't armed murderers running around on the streets here shooting defenseless people and we're not the target of terror attacks. actually, armed robbery is very rare. and when a robber is armed, it's usually with a knife.

[Variable]

If you're ok being ignorant to facts then that's on you brother. 

But you did bring up a good point.  Each society is different.  Meaning each society needs different laws and philosophies to govern it.  So its kind of annoying when certain Europeans try to throw their opinions in about American society when its different. 

[devilinside]

LOL...nah,ya'll just use swords and axes and shit.

[Variable]

yeah.  People act like there was no murder or violence before firearms. 

[Variable]

In fact.  I think I'm going to go to sweeden and shank someone just to piss Jacob off.