FUCK WORK

[goldpony]

unfortunately work is a neccessary evil if you wish to have a reliable place to sleep (unless you can live with the rents forever). that being said, people put too much emphasis on their jobs and the money they make. Why not strive for a life of leisure and make work a means to an end rather than the end itself. sure, i work 8 hours a day, but when its over i forget all about it and go pursue my real passions: bear love and collecting vintage speculums

[lithium]

we hear ya

[wither-I]

i'm working on a series of paintings

[Variable]

unfortunately work is a neccessary evil if you wish to have a reliable place to sleep (unless you can live with the rents forever). that being said, people put too much emphasis on their jobs and the money they make. Why not strive for a life of leisure and make work a means to an end rather than the end itself. sure, i work 8 hours a day, but when its over i forget all about it and go pursue my real passions: bear love and collecting vintage speculums

I think that one of the points of this topic is that yes work is necessary in this system, but what if the system was different so that we didn't have to work?
I hear you on what you said about making work a means to an end.  Just live your life to be happy and make work something you do to survive and allow you to pursue your happiness.  It's probably also better if you can somehow find work that you do enjoy ( as Kelly said ). But I still agree with the many statements in this topic that we are slaves to work and money.  That we would be infinitely more free if we did not have to hold occupations.
I think about it sometimes.  Especially since I learned about the Venus project ( I'm guessing that's where nonesuch got this rant from) but I just think about how it would be if we did have a resource based economy.  If everything I needed was just provided and I was free to live my life how it made me happy.  Be able to sleep in when I want.  Organize a trip with my buddies to just go mountain climbing in Afghanistan, or snowboarding in Switzerland , scuba diving in Australia, just sit around for a week and smoke peyote ......because fuck it, we have nothing better to do but enjoy our lives and enjoy eachothers company.  That sounds like living to me.  When I get stressed I think about stuff like this and it calms me down.

[nonesuch]

I'm wandering around the globe, doing whatever the fuck i want to do

And yea Variable, exactly, the point of this thread isn't that I (or the all encompassing "we") don't want to work.  I don't, but the point is that it's shit that we HAVE to work.  And the argument that noone would do anything and the world would fall apart is ridiculous.

The people that do the most good do it because they want to.  Scientists don't get into science because of the big bux, they do it because they love it. They were the kids that got first prize in the science fair and reveled in it.  So they would still study science and invent even if money wasn't there, but instead of working for pharmecutical giants (because they pay the best) that are pumping out brain destoying dope for problems that dont exist, or making make up, or building atomic weapons,  they would be creating truly useful technologies, they would concentrate on the good of mankind, and they would be celebrated as heros for it.  Same for doctors, some get into it for the money, but most just want to help people, and if all of their needs were taken care of freely they would still want to help people.  And  healthcare would be vastly better it doctors weren't suggesting surgery for every ailment because they get more money, or prescribing the drug of the month because some pill company is offering vacations.  Besides, how much better do people work when they are doing something they WANT to do, not something they HAVE to do?

As far as shit jobs are concerned, let the robots have em

the Holy Book wisely said a million years ago - "Money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

too true God, too true

[devlin]

the people who get paid a shit load of money anyway probably would still do it. because as you said they love it. but there are way to many "shit" for the "robots to have"who the everything needs someone to make/grow it, pack it, ship it, stock it, and sell it. wtih out all that no one would eat, unless everyone became farmers and thats not very conducive to the wandering the globe getting high life style. i can't believe so many of you want your life to be purposless leisure.

EDIT: i totally understand some kid wanting to take a year or two to travel and live it up before starting college or going into a career. but to spend your whole life that way...besides plan tickets, food, shelter, drugs all cost money. you wont get far with that life style either. well unless you give a mean blowjob anyway.

[devilinside]

the Holy Book wisely said a million years ago - "Money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

I do agree with this.

[goldpony]

before we get too far, i think everyone neds to realize that not everyone can be independent. what i mean is, we all say this is how we would live life but to actually live a life "doing nothing" is hard work. to truly make it work, do you realize all the budgeting, decisions and just straight up worrying about money that has to be done. a lot of times its more work and stress to live without constraints than it is to be a cubicle drone. just ask all those back to nature folks who live in alaska. I dont think i could hold those guys jocks.

[nonesuch]

Dev you would be surprised how much labor (farming in particular) is already done by machines.  Robots are rapidly taking jobs from people all the time, and its a big problem because now those people cant make money to survive.  In the very near future damn near all repetitive labor shit work will be automated anyway, and all those hands that used to be occupied will be left with just a dick. 

Goldpony you may be right that not all people can handle freedom.  Actually most people want and need to be told what to do all the time.  But I am a perfect example of the opposite.  For over a year now i have been wandering around from country to country doing whatever i please.  I barely have enough money to feed myself most of the time but i never worry about it.  When i need money i teach english, or when i was in australia i did whatever i had to do to survive (bars, restaurants, hostels, etc).  I'm honestly never stressed and i couldnt be happier. 

[Variable]

the Holy Book wisely said a million years ago - "Money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

I do agree with this.

I guess ill be called an ass hole again for correcting an inaccuracy in someones post.  But it actually says " The love of money is the root of all evil."  Big difference I think.

[nonesuch]

not that big really cuz even people that hate money commit evil to get it, and it all depends on what version and translation of the Bible your reading


and yes, you are an asshole

[devilinside]

the Holy Book wisely said a million years ago - "Money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

I do agree with this.

I guess ill be called an ass hole again for correcting an inaccuracy in someones post.  But it actually says " The love of money is the root of all evil."  Big difference I think.

ASSHOLE!!!

[lithium]

Work is never over

[Variable]

I'm wandering around the globe, doing whatever the fuck i want to do

And yea Variable, exactly, the point of this thread isn't that I (or the all encompassing "we") don't want to work.  I don't, but the point is that it's shit that we HAVE to work.  And the argument that noone would do anything and the world would fall apart is ridiculous.

The people that do the most good do it because they want to.  Scientists don't get into science because of the big bux, they do it because they love it. They were the kids that got first prize in the science fair and reveled in it.  So they would still study science and invent even if money wasn't there, but instead of working for pharmecutical giants (because they pay the best) that are pumping out brain destoying dope for problems that dont exist, or making make up, or building atomic weapons,  they would be creating truly useful technologies, they would concentrate on the good of mankind, and they would be celebrated as heros for it.  Same for doctors, some get into it for the money, but most just want to help people, and if all of their needs were taken care of freely they would still want to help people.  And  healthcare would be vastly better it doctors weren't suggesting surgery for every ailment because they get more money, or prescribing the drug of the month because some pill company is offering vacations.  Besides, how much better do people work when they are doing something they WANT to do, not something they HAVE to do?

As far as shit jobs are concerned, let the robots have em

the Holy Book wisely said a million years ago - "Money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

too true God, too true

This post reminded me of Marx.  From the Communist Manifesto " The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe.  It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage-laborers."

But I do think a lot of people go into these high paid jobs, just for the money.  But in the kind of society you are talking about, I agree that people would do them because they love them.  That would probably raise the quality of work coming out of these people.  Plus people would be free to be teachers  and all those other jobs that we all say " They should be making the most money " because there would be no money.  Just respect and satisfaction.  So in essence, they would be the highest paid. 

I think we ran into a communication problem in this thread.  Devlin and Josh , I think you seem to be thinking that we are talking about just being some kind of kung fu transient in todays world and economy.  That obviously only makes sense for a short time and could not be done by the whole world at once.

What we ( or at least I ) am talking about is a world that doesn't exist yet.  A world where there is literally no currency.  A world where labor is done by machines, so humans no longer have to perform labor.  Its not about being lazy, its about freedom.  Not being a slave to a monetary system.  You are free to do as you please because you have nothing holding you back.

You guys said it yourselves.  About how you can't imagine people wanting lives of leisure and so forth.  People wouldn't.  Humans would still have drives to achieve.  We would still educate ourselves.  With that education Doctors would treat patients because its what they love to do.  Scientist would solve problems because it is a passion.  Artist would make art because it brings them joy to share it with the world...... You could be as productive as you wish.  That is the beauty.  I could become a MD without huge med school bills.  So I could be free to travel and enjoy the world, all the while practicing a passion of mine ( medicine ) for the people I encounter. 

No stress about money, because it doesn't exist.  No stress about food, because it is provided.  No need to run to a sports store to buy mountain climbing gear, because it is provided.  How cool would that be?

I understand the thousands of doubts running through your heads right now about how it wouldn't work because of this and that.  But even if you can only see it in theory, how cool would that be?

not that big really cuz even people that hate money commit evil to get it, and it all depends on what version and translation of the Bible your reading


and yes, you are an asshole

See I think it is a really big difference.  And every version of the bible I have seen it says "the love....." if you google 1st timothy 6:10 you can see a lot of articles and online discussions about how it is one of the most misquotes verses in the bible.  Here is the entire verse from many translations of the bible.  Notice how it goes on to say only some people are negatively effected by it.  I'm not preaching, because I dont think the bible is a holy book.  But I just wanted to clear that up.  I just don't think money is always evil.  You can be born into this system and just be trying to make ends meat to feed your children.  Its when you love money.  When you would do anything to get it no matter who you hurt.  That is evil.

International Standard Version (©2008)
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some people, in their eagerness to get rich, have wandered away from the faith and caused themselves a lot of pain.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For the love of money is a root of all sorts of evil, and some by longing for it have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many griefs.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Certainly, the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. Some people who have set their hearts on getting rich have wandered away from the Christian faith and have caused themselves a lot of grief.

King James Bible
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

American King James Version
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

American Standard Version
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Bible in Basic English
For the love of money is a root of all evil: and some whose hearts were fixed on it have been turned away from the faith, and been wounded with unnumbered sorrows.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For the desire of money is the root of all evils; which some coveting have erred from the faith, and have entangled themselves in many sorrows.

Darby Bible Translation
For the love of money is the root of every evil; which some having aspired after, have wandered from the faith, and pierced themselves with many sorrows.

English Revised Version
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil: which some reaching after have been led astray from the faith, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Webster's Bible Translation
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some have coveted, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Weymouth New Testament
For from love of money all sorts of evils arise; and some have so hankered after money as to be led astray from the faith and be pierced through with countless sorrows.

World English Bible
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Some have been led astray from the faith in their greed, and have pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

Young's Literal Translation
for a root of all the evils is the love of money, which certain longing for did go astray from the faith, and themselves did pierce through with many sorrows;

PUSSY LIPS!

the Holy Book wisely said a million years ago - "Money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

I do agree with this.

I guess ill be called an ass hole again for correcting an inaccuracy in someones post.  But it actually says “ The love of money is the root of all evil.”  Big difference I think.

ASSHOLE!!!

[devlin]

I'm wandering around the globe, doing whatever the fuck i want to do

And yea Variable, exactly, the point of this thread isn't that I (or the all encompassing "we") don't want to work.  I don't, but the point is that it's shit that we HAVE to work.  And the argument that noone would do anything and the world would fall apart is ridiculous.

The people that do the most good do it because they want to.  Scientists don't get into science because of the big bux, they do it because they love it. They were the kids that got first prize in the science fair and reveled in it.  So they would still study science and invent even if money wasn't there, but instead of working for pharmecutical giants (because they pay the best) that are pumping out brain destoying dope for problems that dont exist, or making make up, or building atomic weapons,  they would be creating truly useful technologies, they would concentrate on the good of mankind, and they would be celebrated as heros for it.  Same for doctors, some get into it for the money, but most just want to help people, and if all of their needs were taken care of freely they would still want to help people.  And  healthcare would be vastly better it doctors weren't suggesting surgery for every ailment because they get more money, or prescribing the drug of the month because some pill company is offering vacations.  Besides, how much better do people work when they are doing something they WANT to do, not something they HAVE to do?

As far as shit jobs are concerned, let the robots have em

the Holy Book wisely said a million years ago - "Money is the ROOT of ALL evil"

too true God, too true

This post reminded me of Marx.  From the Communist Manifesto " The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honored and looked up to with reverent awe.  It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage-laborers."

But I do think a lot of people go into these high paid jobs, just for the money.  But in the kind of society you are talking about, I agree that people would do them because they love them.  That would probably raise the quality of work coming out of these people.  Plus people would be free to be teachers  and all those other jobs that we all say " They should be making the most money " because there would be no money.  Just respect and satisfaction.  So in essence, they would be the highest paid. 

I think we ran into a communication problem in this thread.  Devlin and Josh , I think you seem to be thinking that we are talking about just being some kind of kung fu transient in todays world and economy.  That obviously only makes sense for a short time and could not be done by the whole world at once.

What we ( or at least I ) am talking about is a world that doesn't exist yet.  A world where there is literally no currency.  A world where labor is done by machines, so humans no longer have to perform labor.  Its not about being lazy, its about freedom.  Not being a slave to a monetary system.  You are free to do as you please because you have nothing holding you back.

You guys said it yourselves.  About how you can't imagine people wanting lives of leisure and so forth.  People wouldn't.  Humans would still have drives to achieve.  We would still educate ourselves.  With that education Doctors would treat patients because its what they love to do.  Scientist would solve problems because it is a passion.  Artist would make art because it brings them joy to share it with the world...... You could be as productive as you wish.  That is the beauty.  I could become a MD without huge med school bills.  So I could be free to travel and enjoy the world, all the while practicing a passion of mine ( medicine ) for the people I encounter. 

No stress about money, because it doesn't exist.  No stress about food, because it is provided.  No need to run to a sports store to buy mountain climbing gear, because it is provided.  How cool would that be?

I understand the thousands of doubts running through your heads right now about how it wouldn't work because of this and that.  But even if you can only see it in theory, how cool would that be?

well your right i had no idea thats what you were talking about. i can honestly say that i don't see that EVER happening. the people with the most control are the people with money. which makes them better, higher class, more powerful (even if only in their own head). why would they want to get rid of money? like was said before the more machines do the less there is for humans to do. and since i don't see money disapearing, i see this leading to even more poverty and hardships for humans.

but if things were to work out to be the utopian future that you describe i see 90% of humans becaming lazier and fatter and wasting away the time. ever see Wall-e? only musicians, artists, pro athletes, doctors, scientist ect... people who already do what they love, would continue and make the most of their time. many may start strong but to much time on the hands is bad for most people.

[Variable]

They would want to give up their money because I'm going to kill whoever doesn't.

[devlin]

lol fair enough

[poofing acid]

If I didn't have all this student debt I'd build my own shelter and live in the woods.  I just wouldn't want to leave my parents with all the payments because they cosigned the shit. 

[alvarezbassist17]

God, I wish I would've been around for this conversation.  I would've set y'all straight.  The Neo-Anarcho-Communists or whatever you wanna call them do have a point in saying that we shouldn't have to work as much as we do because of all the technology we have today, etc.  But their mechanism for society completely lacks a pricing mechanism, or resource allocation device, based on individual's needs, abilities to pay for their wants, etc.  That can only come from the free market (and protection of private property), the coming together of every person's every decision, weaving the web of these decisions into a fabric that is the price structure.  

So while their prescription for the disease is entirely misled and genuinely worse for the population, they nonetheless see a similar disease to what I and other Austrian economists do.  The disease is really the robbery of all of our productivity through taxes, regulation and inflation, and the effects they have on resource allocation and the fabric I described above.  It's the reason we have to work our fucking asses off more and more for less and less all of the time.  It's just the government ripping off people's productivity and preventing more from occurring, so we have to work ever harder for it.

[Make_shift Destiny]

Totally agree with you on private property. Soon all the rich are going to buy all access land, and we are going to be fucked. SO FUCK PRIVATE PROPERTY.