People complain because Deftones, like all music, is externally created but self-identifying. Fans of past material use that material to let others know a little bit about who they are, and/or to affirm within themselves who they are. The problem with this is that an expectation grows that music understands us as individuals, which, of course, it can't. When an artist or group comes out with an album that doesn't reflect what we perceive to be representative of ourselves we feel alienated, as if an intimate friend no longer understands who we are. Of course music is not sentient, and there's no reason why a group of strangers would produce material that consistently reflects or parallels our own lives, but still that hope or expectation remains. Often concurrently (but obviously not always), once we can't identify with new material we fear that others will falsely associate that material as being as representative of us as the older material we actually related to. We feel betrayed by this notion, and just as in any human relationship, once trust is broken it can be difficult to repair. It's an anthropomorphic nightmare, but it's strangely common.

The truth is we can chose which material to internalize and reflect, and which to leave external. Another truth is that some material can be representative of us as individuals without the expectation that all material should be representative of us. That, however, does not make the failed expectation of external self-expression any less bitter to those who had the expectation to begin with.

On the other hand, as individuals, we enjoy music for different reasons; what we wish to extract from music can be incredibly varied. On that level, we can be disappointed by a break in a pattern that we've become accustomed to. If what we typically extract from a body of work is lacking in a recent installment, we feel the absence and cannot focus on what else is there. This is only natural, and again is born from expectation. Expectation is very complicated, but there's almost always a correlation between expectation and appreciation.

All in all, what I'm trying to say is what everyone else has already said--we either like the new album, don't, or find ourselves somewhere in between. There's no right or wrong, no lack of validity anywhere on the spectrum. Of course our reasons for enjoying or not enjoying the album can sometimes be illogical, especially to each other, but that's the beauty of art and thought and emotion--it's often illogical.

Much respect,
-Matt

Haha could of just had the last paragraph but A for effort

Yeah, my apologies in advance, I felt like a rant after a long day of overtime work, haha. It helps me relax.

Much respect,
-Matt

haha just kidding I appreciate a well constructed argument with explanation better than some people who just result to insults and swearing

Love the way this thread flows, respect and candor are awesome!

That being said after listening to KNY for 2 Weeks, quite a lot, I am pleased! The boys always say the same thing but the evolution of the sound is the beauty of this record. Not a masterpiece by any stretch but Deftones Pure...that is why I love it! Just like everything Sacto's best band has ever done...

Just my thoughts at this point....

Quote from: Jerry_Curls on Nov 30, 2012, 11:49 PM
Deftones will never win. When White Pony came out, people were talking shit about how stupid tracks like Teenager, RX Queen, shitty vocals on Elite, Digital Bath being gay, etc etc... Then they try and go back to basics and come out with S/T. People bash it because it isn't as experimental as WP. While writing SNW, Deftones tease people with the fact that they are going to try new sounds and they did! More positive sounding, spacey songs, but still have to include the typical CHUG CHUG MOSH PIT songs because the old fans kept complaining that they were getting soft. Then DE comes out and kind of go back to basics again, but still continue to thrive with that sound of SNW, but production is million times better! People still want more experimentation and then KNY comes out. New vocal style, way more keys and effects, consistent production on tracks to make it a cohesive album, yet people still fucking complain!

I love this album. It has a great balance of heaviness, spacey, droney, shoegazy, beauty, jump up-and-down in the pit kind of songs, experimental, etc etc. What else do people want? They're getting older and still making great music. 7 albums in, b-sides, covers, and we'll still get more from these guys. Yes, there some things I wish were different, but I'm not in the band, so what can I do?

I never really heard anyone talking flat out shit about White Pony, but who ever said "Teenager", "RX Queen", or "Digital Bath" were gay needs to be shot in the throat with a rifle.

And the reason I complain about KNY is not because I want another "Hexagram" or another White Pony or the same thing over and over, its because I just *don't like this direction* personally. It sounds kind of un-thought out and delirious because of its sudden violent divergence from the few defining elements present in the first four albums. Those original albums all had some kind of indescribable tonal thread connecting them even though they were really unique. If they had chosen a direction that fits snugly into the original tone, (That was once again present in four and a half albums, so you cant really say I want more of one thing because they were all still different) or maybe just chose Terry again and taken more time to work, better songs would have been in KNY's place I assure you.

.....But they said fuck off to that formula on Diamond Eyes and have since gone the same way on KNY. Making shit that doesn't sound like Deftones. I don't care if its heavy or super dark. It just has to sound like THEM. A song like "Swerve City" back in 95, 97, 2000, 2003, or even 2006, would not be caught as even a goddamn b-side on a Deftones record. That would be a song made by the pussy metal bands we scoffed at as we enjoyed our bad ass Deftones.

I think Nick get's an unfair lot of blame, I think no matter who produced the last two records they would have been similar tonally just because of the huge effect Chi's accident had and how it made them grateful for everyone,The music still sounds great i just think some people are struggling with the more positive tone because they like the dark moody deftones because they themselves are moody that being said there are people who just don't like how it sounds sonically which is fine too everyone's allowed an opinion but when someone says it "Gay" or "pussy" that just shows they have some maturing to do and from then on anything they say has no weight to me.

Quote from: DeftonesNZ on Dec 01, 2012, 10:13 AM
I think Nick get's an unfair lot of blame, I think no matter who produced the last two records they would have been similar tonally just because of the huge effect Chi's accident had and how it made them grateful for everyone,The music still sounds great i just think some people are struggling with the more positive tone because they like the dark moody deftones because they themselves are moody that being said there are people who just don't like how it sounds sonically which is fine too everyone's allowed an opinion but when someone says it "Gay" or "pussy" that just shows they have some maturing to do and from then on anything they say has no weight to me.

I think though about 50% of it is Nick. I kind of learned this from producing my own music, think about how much sonic texture a song has in terms of what impression you have of it when its unproduced. Now think about the flipside of it, once its produced and has tons of effects and filters on it, it comes off almost completely different because the notes have become distorted to some extent by sounding cleaner or certain parts being more pronounced. So yes, Nick does have some part in it.

And I wouldn't exactly say I want "moodiness". I can listen to a song like "Ever" by Team Sleep, or "Gift", or "Street Carp", which are all pretty upbeat or not exactly negative in some way. They aren't all evil and mysterious sounding, and I still love them. But, as I said, there's just something that I can't really explain about those first four albums (and some of Saturday Night Wrist) that makes them different. It has nothing to do with what the sad/happy thing. Its much deeper than that.

You are correct in retrospect though that maybe I should not have used crude terms to describe the music like "gay", "pussy", etc. because that does weaken the credibility of the serious argument Im trying to get across. But how better can I describe it? They sound like 30 Seconds To Mars, (modern) Alice In Chains, Bush, all the artists I would (in the presence of people I know in real life) say sound "pussy", etc. I'm merely stepping away from the actual bulk of my thought out opinion and devolving to a more casual and unintelligent mode of calling out what I don't like because there's not actually a name for what Im trying to describe. Pop metal? Modern alternative metal?

Yeah get what your saying wasn't aimed just at you , I agree that Terry Date knows how to produce Deftones music my thought is that he wouldn't change the style and tone of the music as some people expect the guys have said in interviews that Terry gave like no input when it came to writing he basically just waited till they had done it then recorded it , The change in tone just happened to occur on Nick's first record which makes a lot of people blame him for making Deftones go soft when in the reality it was Chi's accident that changed their outlook on life.I would love to see how Terry would go now with them I wonder if they would keep the same fast work ethic i'm sure Terry would make them sound amazing as usual i'd just be worried they'd slip back into the whole 3-4 years between albums deal.

about terry-

http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=R0w3xzcovn8&p=n#/94;190

looking at clips how nick works with singers,i just have a feeling that he has opinions about how melodies in songs should be, more involved in the song writing. a lot of stuff on d.e and kny doesn't sound like chino melodies. while terry let deftones do the parts of their own and he helps them with what should be left out and what parts stays, more about structures kinda guy. "no input" is a stretch i think

I can't believe (well I can believe it) that people compare this album to White Pony. It's such a fucking tired comparison. IT sounds nothing like the album. I've even heard some people comparing it to ATF saying it sounds like it. I just don't get the overwhelming praise of the album.

I don't get the comparisons either ,I hate it when people feel the need to compare it to something,although i sometimes do it myself lol mainly to try describe it to someone but with Deftones you usually have to combine a couple of albums to create something close and even then that still doesn't cover it.

Quote from: DeftonesNZ on Dec 01, 2012, 12:18 PM
I don't get the comparisons either ,I hate it when people feel the need to compare it to something,although i sometimes do it myself lol mainly to try describe it to someone but with Deftones you usually have to combine a couple of albums to create something close and even then that still doesn't cover it.

lol

Whatever man

Quote from: DeftonesNZ on Dec 01, 2012, 12:18 PM
I don't get the comparisons either ,I hate it when people feel the need to compare it to something,although i sometimes do it myself lol mainly to try describe it to someone but with Deftones you usually have to combine a couple of albums to create something close and even then that still doesn't cover it.

Issues since WP:

Stefs super low guitar, which sometimes feels like a big syrupy synth sound rather than an actual guitar, which sucks.

Chino once had full command of his voice and could still sing aggressively and scream normally and transition between the two with ease, gone are those days.

Abe ditching the tight snare drum sound, he's gone for a more fuller sound now, which doesnt cut through the mix as much.

Lyrics going from abstract to literal

General overall move towards a more commercial sound (Chino takes credit for this)

All that said, I still love having new Deftones records.

yea i dont like the comparasion either, .. i just like KYN period.

i think chino's screams are a bit weak and sounds broken and strained today.or at least when they recorded kny. they were ok on d.e.. not great, but ok... sometimes when hearing them on this record it's almost that I wish he'd skip them. i also get the feeling like he unwillingly performs them, just because it is expected of him. and then we have a strange situation where he screams but doesn't want to, and we don't want to hear it but have to listen to it. it may sound a little overdramatic, especially since I like the album, but chino's vocals and steph's riffs are a weak factor on kny imo. til next time, I wish that the two main members are at their peak and bring their a-game,especially if they're gonna continue the less emotional path. i'm not a nick fan but his echos and stuff are nice here.. he sounds like he's having fun in the studio unlike the others. for the others it's just like a normal day at work

Quote from: Electron§ on Dec 01, 2012, 10:05 AM

Quote from: Jerry_Curls on Nov 30, 2012, 11:49 PM
Deftones will never win. When White Pony came out, people were talking shit about how stupid tracks like Teenager, RX Queen, shitty vocals on Elite, Digital Bath being gay, etc etc... Then they try and go back to basics and come out with S/T. People bash it because it isn't as experimental as WP. While writing SNW, Deftones tease people with the fact that they are going to try new sounds and they did! More positive sounding, spacey songs, but still have to include the typical CHUG CHUG MOSH PIT songs because the old fans kept complaining that they were getting soft. Then DE comes out and kind of go back to basics again, but still continue to thrive with that sound of SNW, but production is million times better! People still want more experimentation and then KNY comes out. New vocal style, way more keys and effects, consistent production on tracks to make it a cohesive album, yet people still fucking complain!

I love this album. It has a great balance of heaviness, spacey, droney, shoegazy, beauty, jump up-and-down in the pit kind of songs, experimental, etc etc. What else do people want? They're getting older and still making great music. 7 albums in, b-sides, covers, and we'll still get more from these guys. Yes, there some things I wish were different, but I'm not in the band, so what can I do?

I never really heard anyone talking flat out shit about White Pony, but who ever said "Teenager", "RX Queen", or "Digital Bath" were gay needs to be shot in the throat with a rifle.

And the reason I complain about KNY is not because I want another "Hexagram" or another White Pony or the same thing over and over, its because I just *don't like this direction* personally. It sounds kind of un-thought out and delirious because of its sudden violent divergence from the few defining elements present in the first four albums. Those original albums all had some kind of indescribable tonal thread connecting them even though they were really unique. If they had chosen a direction that fits snugly into the original tone, (That was once again present in four and a half albums, so you cant really say I want more of one thing because they were all still different) or maybe just chose Terry again and taken more time to work, better songs would have been in KNY's place I assure you.

.....But they said fuck off to that formula on Diamond Eyes and have since gone the same way on KNY. Making shit that doesn't sound like Deftones. I don't care if its heavy or super dark. It just has to sound like THEM. A song like "Swerve City" back in 95, 97, 2000, 2003, or even 2006, would not be caught as even a goddamn b-side on a Deftones record. That would be a song made by the pussy metal bands we scoffed at as we enjoyed our bad ass Deftones.

Being part of the Deftones community since I was 12, I have seen a lot of opinions about every album. I was just sharing some views I've seen over the years.

I definitely see where you are coming from, but this "sudden divergence" in their sound isn't unexpected to me. Ever since DE, they've been constantly talking about how they approach their music differently, happier times these days, etc etc. I mark SNW as the start of their new sound and that was what...6 years ago? I'm sure you could've seen this coming sooner rather later. I'm not trying to insult or anything, I just feel like this sound has been expected since then.

Trust me, I'm not saying KNY is perfect. I would love for Stef's guitar to be heavier sounding if hes going to be using an 8string guitar. I want to my brain to feel pummeled by it. I want more experimentation ala Crenshaw/FOD, everyone seems to love Entombed and I don't (haha), but there are some really great things on this album. Go back and listen to Crosses and then KNY. I love how Chino's singing/tone is more in my face. At first when I heard Leathers, I didn't like it, but now I do. I would be bored if he continued with the same Team Sleep, S/T (even though that is my favorite) style. I love the use of outros, letting the songs just continue and be super heavy (Gauze's ending is one of my favorite parts of the album) Abe's drumming still gets me.

I can't wait for their next album.

I think Stephens riffs are still good i would just like to hear a more noticeable change in notes sometimes he tends to just play the same area and the changes are hard to pick up so it just sounds like he's just playing one note constantly

Well, i'm not following the discussion around here, i'm sorry for that, i will not read anything above me anyway, because i'm freaking lazy.
Whatever; are we not getting any b-sides on koi no yokan? its a shame if we're really not, I was expecting for that. Can anyone tell me something about it? hope you understood me! peace!